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Today Liz and I were fortunate to have Jimmy Moore of Livin’ La Vida Low-Carb on the Balanced Bites Podcast.
Jimmy has integrated Paleo principles into his long-running Low-Carb journey, and works tirelessly to help others do the same. Jimmy is an incredibly genuine, engaging individual and it was my pleasure to meet him in person at the Paleo f(x) Symposium last week. Jimmy was both a presenter and a moderator for several sessions at f(x), and we get his take on some current issues in this podcast!
Check out Jimmy’s work…
And on his blog!
LIZ WOLFE:Hey everyone, I’m Liz Wolfe, here with Diane Sanfilippo of Balanced Bites, and a very special guest, Jimmy Moore, of Livin’ La Vida Low Carb. Everybody there?
JIMMY MOORE:Wassup? [laughs]
DIANE SANFILIPPO:Yup. [laughs]
LIZ WOLFE:[laughs] Hey guys, just a reminder before we get started that the materials and content contained in this podcast are for general information only, and are not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. So as some of you may know, last week we were smack dab in the middle of Austin, Texas at UT for the PaleoFX Theory to Practice Symposium, and yes, that did overlap a little music festival called South by Southwest, and just leave it to Paleo people to be more excited about a nutritional theory to practice event than a major music festival. [laughs]
LIZ WOLFE:Although we’d expect some good music, I think, at the 24 Diner, which serves amazing Paleo-friendly food. Pork chops, eggs, all kinds of good stuff. So Jimmy…
LIZ WOLFE:Hi there. Thanks for being with us.
JIMMY MOORE:Hey, it’s cool to be on the Balanced Bites podcast. You guys were on my shows, so turnabout is fair play, right?
LIZ WOLFE:Yup, I think so. I think so. [laughs] And we definitely had a good time on your show. We’re just going to try to keep up with you because you’re an old pro at this. You’ve given us lots of good advice that we have struggled to incorporate, but you’re going to be impressed today. You’re going to be impressed with the way I close out this show. You’re going to want to high five me.
JIMMY MOORE:You guys do well. [laughs] Bring it.
LIZ WOLFE:Well, let’s get some…yeah, bring it. Let’s get some announcements here out of the way real quick. Updates, events. Diane, what’s…what do you have on the agenda?
DIANE SANFILIPPO:So I think if people tuned in last week, they heard our big announcement that you and I will be teaching together, moving forward…
LIZ WOLFE:Woo hoo!
DIANE SANFILIPPO:Woo hoo! For an undetermined amount of time. We don’t know what’s going on, but basically yeah, if you’re coming to any of our upcoming events, you’ll be able to see both Liz and I teaching. We’re going to change the format of the seminar a bit. The content and materials that we’ll cover, you know, obviously very similar. We’re still teaching about, you know, Paleo nutrition, but yeah, I’m really excited. As like seriously bursting because I’m thrilled to have, you know, have a good friend and colleague teaching with me, so this is going to be exciting.
But we’ve got a couple of events coming up right away. April 14th in Frisco, Texas, in the Dallas-Ft. Worth area. We’re going to be at Frisco CrossFit, so we saw a bunch of people down in Austin who were psyched about that. So if you are thinking about coming, definitely sign up. I think within the next week now, it’s still the lower rate, early bird rate, so check that out. And then April 21st, in Cherry Hill, New Jersey, sort of back home for both of us. Well, home for now. CrossFit Aspire, and yeah, that’s going to be an awesome event too. I’m really excited. I think we are also going to have Bill and Hayley from the Food Lovers’ Primal Palate at that April 21st event, so if people have their book or want to get a copy and get it signed, come out to Cherry Hill and check us out there. So that’s what I’ve got for what’s upcoming.
LIZ WOLFE:Well, I just have one quick announcement. I came across a New York Times contest. They are accepting submissions on the topic. Quote: Tell us why it’s ethical to eat meat. So I know we’ve got some people with some pretty strong views on that topic. I think it’ll be pretty cool if some of our listeners got in on that. I put it up on my Facebook page at Cave Girl Eats, and I’m thinking I might write something myself. See if I can’t make my way into the New York Times through this kind of backdoor type of process. We’ll see. We’ll see.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:I would love to read what you write about that. [laughs]
LIZ WOLFE:Yeah. We’ll see how it goes.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:Very cool.
LIZ WOLFE:Yeah, so let’s get moving with our special guest, Jimmy Moore of Livin’ La Vida Low Carb. Jimmy, let’s have you do a little intro of yourself, kinda…your website and how you got into this kind of nutrition…this nutrition realm.
JIMMY MOORE:Sure. in 2003, I was 410 pounds and 3 prescription medications, pretty much was just living the typical American diet of garbage, as I like to call it now “carbage,” ’cause a lot of this food that I was consuming was just pure carb-loaded garbage, so “carbage” fits the bill. And I started on the Atkins Diet that year and lost a whole lot of weight that year. Really didn’t pay attention to food quality, and it’s just been kind of through this metamorphosis of thinking over the past few years that I’ve been watching the Paleo community kind of come on strong and I really love what the Paleo community has done for me personally because it has had me re-evaluate what I do. That doesn’t mean I’ve abandoned low carb. I still think low carb in general is probably right for me, but food quality has become so much more important, much more so than the macronutrients, and I think that that’s something that I think a lot of low carbers are really starting to look at. People that have been long term low carb, they’re starting to look at maybe that food quality is probably the direction they need to be moving as well. So I have this little blog called Livin’ La Vida Low Carb that I started to encourage people. Actually, the moniker that I give it is “Educate, Encourage, and Inspire Others to Live a Healthy Lifestyle,” And if that means you want to do veganism and it makes you happy and healthy, go for it. I don’t have a problem with that. That’s why I love the Paleo people, too because you found something that’s worked for you, and you’re doing it. And I now feel like I’m a part of that because I-my food quality is probably as good as just about any Paleo dieter out there. I just don’t eat safe starches yet. [laughs] I might soon, but…
JIMMY MOORE:A little bit here and there.
JIMMY MOORE:So…go ahead.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:No, no, go ahead.
JIMMY MOORE:I was going to say, and I have 3 podcasts, and I’m absolutely nutso doing 3 podcasts, but the Livin’ La Vida Low Carb show is the one you guys have been on. That airs 3 days a week, Monday through Wednesday. Thursday is a live show, “Ask the Low Carb Experts” with a lot of the people you’ve had on your show, like Chris Kresser is coming up this Thursday to talk about thyroid health. And then Fridays, we have kind of a roundtable show where we just kind of do what you guys do on your show. You just kind of jibber-jabber about some of the various health things that are out there, and we bring in people from the low carb and Paleo communities to do that on low carb conversations.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:Awesome. You know what’s funny. I actually don’t even remember how I first learned about you. This is Diane, for our listeners who keep getting confused about our voices. I don’t remember how I first heard about you, Jimmy, but I remember when..must have, well over a year ago when you had Robb Wolf on your show, and I was like, oh yeah, I know about Jimmy Moore. Like I just knew your name from the whole nutrition community and I thought it was really cool that you know, we had kind of interjected this Paleo perspective into what you were doing, and it was just amazing to me, your reach because I had people coming to my seminar who didn’t know anything about what I had been doing before. They weren’t involved in the CrossFit community at all, but they heard about me on your podcast and came to the seminar. I thought it was so amazing how many people you’re reaching with what you’re doing, and I absolutely love it. I love the perspective that you take, and as I’ve looked back through some of the archives that you have, you know, going back years and years, you know, it’s names of people who I now consider friends and colleagues who’ve been on your show, and so I think, you know, I really commend you for the work that you’re doing and I think it’s awesome that you’ve now stepped into this community because I think you’re able to take our message even farther with the whole food quality concern.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:I think that’s a big part of what we teach, right?
JIMMY MOORE:And I think that…exactly, I think that’s been the missing element. Not that Dr. Atkins was by any means saying go eat grain-fed cows, you know. Have the most horrendous eggs from store-bought eggs. I don’t think he was for that, but I don’t think that message came through loud and clear like it does in the Paleo community, which is why I’ve tried to infuse a lot of that into my work now. And I’ve gotten quite frankly some criticism from some of the low carb people saying, “What are you doing, talking about Paleo so much?” I’m like, well, I’m not really switching from low carb; it’s still pretty darn low carb if you look at it. It’s just making that next logical step in the process. Once you switch from fad to low carb, then let’s evaluate. Maybe we can refine low carb to make it even better, and I think that’s what Paleo does.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:That’s awesome, and you know, I have to say, too, that I think even if, you know, your slant ended up shifting at some point, you know, I think part of what you have taught people thus far with the low carb thing is that it doesn’t necessarily mean zero or very low carb, right? You know…
DIANE SANFILIPPO:It doesn’t mean you’re not eating any carbs at all, but it’s this approach, and I think Liz and I have talked about this a bunch that it’s lower than whatever the Standard American Diet might be, and it’s definitely lower in anything refined, you know, and it’s got food quality slant, which I think is just-I just love that you’ve made that switch because I think that really changes the perspective. But you know what? If you, at some point, shifted your perspective and it wasn’t just low carb all the time, who knows? Who knows what’s going to happen, and I think that that’s part of what’s nice about being able to just educate people from a genuine place, and you know, if you wanted to eat some starches at some point, I think it becomes something where you’re being honest and your integrity is there that you can tell people, “I’m trying this.” And I think that’s what’s cool too about what you’ve done all along the way. You’ve done a lot of experiments on yourself and sort of shared the outcomes with people. And that’s what it’s all about, right? I mean, you’re just teaching people what you’re learning along the way, and how that works. And that’s just…you know, that’s one of the things I really love about what you do. I think you’re just very genuine about it. Yeah, I think that’s really just kind of a nice part of your approach.
JIMMY MOORE:Thank you, and I think it would probably be a good idea if the Paleo community really embraced the low carbers because a lot of us, and I’m including myself in that, have struggled, you know, with various things over the years from health issues to obviously the weight issues, and embracing these people and saying, hey, you’ve made a great choice to go low carb from the SAD diet. Now let’s talk about some of these things that we’re doing. And a lot of the Paleo people are doing that.
JIMMY MOORE:I just think, and I know I wrote a column not that long ago about, you know, why is there seemingly such antagonism against people who do low carb from the Paleo community. I do think that they are an outside fringe minority of people ’cause most of the people I’ve run into, definitely at the PaleoFX event, were very supportive of what I do and low carb and definitely the principles that we’re talking about, and definitely if people are struggling, hey, let’s try to tighten up those areas that maybe are blind spots right now.
LIZ WOLFE:This is Liz everyone, for as Diane said, we’ll try and identify ourselves a little bit better. Jimmy, one thing I kind of wanted to talk about, and you’ve kind of done a perfect segue into it is the idea of how we want to approach people of differing opinions within the same community. I do think that any kind of antagonism is just fundamentally unnecessary, but as people with kind of a public voice, especially you with how many people you reach, across both communities, what’s the most important thing? Is it approaching these potentially antagonistic comments with love and with patience, or is it to make the counterpoints, you know, in kind as forcefully or, you know, as powerfully as someone else may be speaking about the opposite points, or how do you respond to those types of things?
JIMMY MOORE:I think it’s a recognition of the differences, that we’re not all the same. If I had the same metabolism as Liz Wolfe and Diane Sanfilippo, you know, it would all be a perfect world because we could all eat the same way and eat the same foods and the same macronutrient ratios and calories and everybody would be hunky dory happy. But unfortunately the real world is I’ve been 410 pounds. My body just is fighting me tooth and nail to be back there again. I honestly believe that some days. And I think just recognizing that there’s some people who do struggle, even doing all the right Paleo things. They can struggle to get weight and health under control, and realizing that there’s probably more going on than meets the eye and helping reach those people where they are, you know, if it’s hormonal imbalances, let’s try to deal with those. Let’s find, you know, do the tests to find out what’s going on, rather than well, you don’t have a right to say anything about this because you have this look, or you have these numbers, and that’s not representing Paleo very well, and blah blah blah.
D Yeah, I think…
LIZ WOLFE:I think there was a little bit of that at PaleoFX for sure, and Diane, I’ll let you kind of speak to this because I was actually at PaleoFX representing both myself and Steve’s Originals, so I was in the vendor area a lot at all, er, a lot during the course of the symposium, so Diane, do you want to talk about kind of these big themes that we were seeing at PaleoFX?
DIANE SANFILIPPO:Yeah, I think, and this was something, you know, we’ve been getting to, right now, so I want to just hear what Jimmy has to say more about it, too, but I think a couple of the themes that I noticed coming up, and one of the probably biggest themes I noticed was, you know, we all need to figure something out for ourselves, like, you know, Robb and Mark Sisson and all these guys were…and Chris Kresser, you know, it all boiled down to, you need to try something, see how it works for you. If it’s not working, try something else. And I think the point about food quality again, Jimmy, was like the whole Paleo perspective is that, look, you know, the reason Paleo is right for everyone is that it’s about food quality. Everyone should be eating food that’s of high quality, right?
DIANE SANFILIPPO:So then, within that, are you low carb or not, or are you low carb for now? Does that work for you? Does it maybe not work for you forever, right? I think that was a kind of a pretty big theme. Did you kind of get that as well?
JIMMY MOORE:I did get that quite a bit. That was a definitely an overriding theme that I saw throughout from people, from Chris Kresser to Mark Sisson, Jack Kruse, Robb Wolf, all these big names were all pretty much saying, we need to kind of focus in on, you know, exactly what quality of food we’re putting in our mouth and what quality of nutrients and that if we’re taking supplements, okay, why are we having to take supplements? Can we get that from a food source? I was just so super impressed with PaleoFX. I’ve been to literally, you know, so many of these over the past few years from obesity conferences to low carb conferences, and of course, AHS. This one set apart to me beyond all of them because of the inner activity. You know, we got to actually hear from the participants in the crowd, who many of which very highly qualified, probably talked a lot about these things as well. It was really a great experience of community, and I didn’t sense any animosity towards anybody at this event. It seemed like everybody was like, you know what, we are one big family and we really need to, you know, talk about these issues that we have disagreements on, but at the end of the day, there’s a big world out there that needs to hear the preponderance of what we’re trying to say from the big picture.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:Yeah. So one of the other things that I thought was really cool, and Jimmy, you were involved in a lot of different panels, which I want to hear some more of your feedback on that, because as Liz mentioned, you know, she was downstairs at the vendor table, and I was busy doing a couple different talks myself, and then kind of all around, but…
JIMMY MOORE:like [xxx]
DIANE SANFILIPPO:Yeah, one of the things I thought was really cool about this event was as you mentioned, for the interactivity, so we had these panels, right, where, you know, we’d have moderators kind of asking questions that we, as panelists, felt that we wanted to talk about within a certain topic, so one of the panels that I was on was Whole Foods vs. Supplements, as you mentioned. You know, we were discussing how to get different nutrients and what we thought about the differences, but I really loved having audience members from each session just raise their hand because I feel like this event put all of us as practitioners a lot more in touch with what people are asking…
DIANE SANFILIPPO:And I think different events like AHS, which was amazing, right? And that was the whole point of PaleoFX was to take it from this theory to practice, like okay, great, we have these ideas. Now what are the questions sort of more on the frontlines of how people are going to act based on what we’ve learned, and how to modify what they’re doing, so yeah, I think there are a couple of other, you know, panels that I didn’t get to see, and I’m just curious, you know, what else maybe you saw some other big themes outside of what we just talked about, you know, that we could kind of share with people.
JIMMY MOORE:Sure, sure. The first panel that I actually got to moderate was how we take this from a fringe movement to the mainstream, and it had all the big names. Robb Wolf was on that panel. We actually had a really special surprise like the day before the panel, Kevin Cottrell, one of the organizers of PFX said, Hey I’ve got somebody else for your panel. I’m like, great, I already have 6 people [laughs]. And they threw Dr. Kim Mulhavey, I believe is her name, the lady that did the big series out in California on television
DIANE SANFILIPPO:San Francisco. Yup.
JIMMY MOORE:And she was like a rock star. It was like, you know…
JIMMY MOORE:how do we take this to the mainstream, and yeah, I know, she was like awesome. And she just absolutely blew everybody away with how she took this little concept of, oh, I’ll do a story on this Paleo diet thing, and then she embraced it and now, not only has the segments done so well that they’ve done like 5 follow-up stories, they’re still doing follow up stories. In fact, at this PaleoFX event, they were doing some more shooting of film, and it’s like, people are really sincerely interested in this, and that’s one of the ways we’re going to get this out there is, maybe some other television reporters out there will say, hey, maybe I’ll try this and get my listeners pulled in because, you know, when it comes down to the end of the day, these television people, they just want ratings and that’s what…you want a lot of people listen to this show, I want people to listen to my show. Nothing wrong with that, but if you can communicate something in the process of that as well, what a powerful thing. And then I was encouraging people, hey, find what you’re good at. You know? And even find what you think you might be good at. You know? I’d never had any background in interviewing people before I started the Livin’ La Vida Low Carb show. I just started doing it, and it’s blossomed into this really cool thing, and I just encourage people there. It’s like, look, find what you are good at. You like to write? By golly, you need to be doing a blog. Maybe you like to talk? You need to be on television, you need to be doing your own podcast show. Do something and after awhile, this groundswell of people are all kind of going to come together and make this really loud voice that people can be like, oh, well, I guess everybody’s doing Paleo now. Let me go try that.
LIZ WOLFE:I could not agree more with you, Jimmy. This is Liz, guys. I think it’s brilliant to tell people, find what you’re good at and do it. I tell people a lot: just start writing. Start a blog. You may hate it. It may last two weeks and you’ll stop updating it, but I actually tell you, if I hadn’t started writing, and figuring out how I felt through the creation of different posts on some of these food issues and different ideas that I was kicking around in my head, I would never have kind of solidified a lot of these things that I am thinking about still today. I wouldn’t have really articulated to myself what I was interested in, and I probably would not have been at PaleoFX, speaking on a panel or having put together a talk with Diane and Diana from Radiance Nutritional Therapy. Have confidence that what you have to say matters and needs to be out there and touch somebody. When Diane and I first got together on this podcast, I believe we kind of discussed the idea that you know, why another podcast? Why are we going to add our voices to this community where there are already so many wonderful quality podcasts, and I think the fact is, the more points of entry for people, the better. Like you said, it’s really a groundswell. Many, many voices kind of all chiming in on the same larger idea, which is better health through evolutionary nutrition, which does, you know, by default kind of embrace food quality. So I think that’s fantastic.
JIMMY MOORE:You know, it was interesting. One of the statistics that I put out there during that specific session was one year ago, we had maybe 6 podcasts. I don’t think you guys had been on too too long at that point, but there were like 6 podcasts, you know, devoted to Paleo. Today, there’s 15. So that tells you how quickly it can grow, and I challenged people in that room. I said, look, one year from now when we come back to PFX 13, it should be 30.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:Yup. Yeah, I think, you know, it’s a funny analogy that I make sometimes when, you know, a lot of us who are in this community think that, you know, the word Paleo is a bit overused or overexposed, and they’re a little concerned about being you know, another blog or another this or another that, and, you know, I have a couple opinions on that. It’s like, well, first of all, you know, think back to when possibly vegetarianism was a new thing, and I think, you know, when we’re starting a movement here. I don’t think there’s any reason that like a new person couldn’t just start their own message. You know, we all have a different experience. We all have a different set of expertise that we bring to the table, and so, like you said, Jimmy, you know, it’s like, well, we decided to start a podcast and I don’t really think it matters that there are others out there because we bring a different message to the table. Even of course there’s some crossover. And the same thing happens when people start a new blog. You know. If you reach a different pocket of people with what you’re doing, even if you’re just, you know, cooking whatever it is and posting pictures. I mean, I know a lot of people who’ve educated, you know, hundreds or even thousands of their friends through you know, Facebook or social media just from posting a picture of what they’re eating, and getting someone to ask the question. And who cares, you know, what kind of credentials you have or not. If you’re helping somebody to live a better life and get healthier, and that’s all that matter, and nobody should feel like they don’t have the right to do that in some way, and I think we all have a different capacity to educate and there’s room for all of it. Because there’s no reason not to just continue to share, you know, what you’ve learned and how you’ve changed your own life, and to help other people. And I think…I don’t know who said this quote or kind of had this quote floating around, and I thought from Jenna Phillips, who I’m like daily getting you know, motivation from…with her “I’m on a mission” videos.
JIMMY MOORE:Love her.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:Right? You know, it’s something to the effect of ” a candle doesn’t lose anything by lighting another candle.” You know? And I love that idea because I always think that way. Like, you know, if I can motivate somebody else to just do their thing and teach people, go do it. It does-it’s no loss to me that you’re now teaching more people than I can reach on my own. So I love that we kind of continue to welcome people into this community and help to spread the message that way.
JIMMY MOORE:Well, and there’s a certain branding that comes when you use Paleo, you know. Because I know some people even like low carb, of, you don’t want to call yourself Livin’ La Vida Low Carb because then you’re pegged. You’re forever pegged to low carb. And I’m like, that’s wrong because…? I’m able to find…people are able to find me now because they’ll do a Google search of low carb, okay, so they find Livin’ La Vida Low Carb, then once they’re there, oh what’s this Paleo thing? So it’s kind let Paleo be the in. Let that be, you know, if you talk about Paleo and people are talking about it, and we saw that big graph, actually Robb Wolf brought that up in that talk I was just talking about where the trend has been since 2009, just we’ve gotten bigger than veganism as a trend in Google. You know, use that to your advantage, and let people find you. And then once they’re there, then they can kind of see the different nuances, but let’s get them in first.
LIZ WOLFE:I think that’s a great transition to what I wanted to ask you, Jimmy, was about the…your participation on the panel Journey of Transformation. I missed that one, and so I would love to kind of hear what your contribution was to that, especially with the kind of different points of entry types of ideas.
JIMMY MOORE:You know, I kind of got emotional on that one. When they were telling us to like briefly tell our story, and I started telling my story, and I’m like, why do I have a big lump in my throat right now? [laughs] And it was really difficult because, you know, I think back to just not that long ago and I was one of those people we’re trying to reach now, and telling my story and how I got into this whole thing, it really was emotional. And I didn’t tell them on the panel, but yeah, I lost my brother at the age of 41 from diabetes and heart disease and morbid obesity, and those are the kind of people I’m trying to save. And if for no other reason, for the memory of my brother, I’m not going to stop talking about this to people and it’s those kinds of events that happen in your life that you can’t help but be passionate about wanting to help people and Andy Deas actually was the one that moderated that one, and he’s like, you know, tell me about how you have used this platform that you have, and I’m like, I’m just going to keep doing it. And I think the more of us that just have had a life change, even though we may not arrive or have ever arrived or will ever arrive. We’re in that journey, we’re in the pursuit. We’re getting there, we’re not stopping just because we may be struggling. And that’s a great message to get out there as well is continue on even if you’re not at that perfect weight, that perfect whatever. Just being on the journey is half the battle.
LIZ WOLFE:Definitely, I think and that’s just…your story has moved me so much, and you’ve been so open about kind of your journey, through your blog and everything like that. I know personally multiple people that have really benefitted from that, so I have to throw it out there. Thank you, Jimmy, for what you’re doing.
I also wanted to kind of touch on the idea that not everyone, and what was so interesting about PaleoFX, too, to me was that there are so many different people coming to this community from so many different places. Some are coming from family medical history issues and hoping to avoid repeating the past, and there’s so many CrossFitters that come through, looking to optimize performance, and there’s people who are just kind of enthusiasts, where this kind of Weston A. Price, farming, and the healing arts just kind of touches them in some way or another. So I think it’s really important to remember that diversity of experience, both in the initial part of the journey and what brings people to Paleo or to wherever it is they’re going, and continue to respect that diversity within the community. I don’t…I don’t know how you, Jimmy and Diane, feel about kind of a unified message vs. kind of embracing all of the disparate chatter among different kind of sects within the same community, but I think it’s great. I love learning about the different places people come from, the different feelings people have about whatever: safe starches. Right now I feel like on my blog, my corner of the Interwebs, people are talking about how lean a woman should or should not be. And the whole thing is just fascinating. Well, that’s not really a question. It was more of a comment. I don’t know, Diane, if you have anything to say about that. [laughs]
DIANE SANFILIPPO:Yeah, no, I think we saw a couple of comments and you know, the Internet people use it as a little bit of a cloak and a protective mechanism sometimes, and make, you know, quasi anonymous comments on people’s blogs about whatever they feel like talking about. But we saw a couple of comments to your point about, you know, the leanness of different people, and it irks me when people expect that just because you eat Paleo, you should be some shredded who knows what, especially as women, I guess. It’s tough, but I think it’s tough for anyone. And this perception, and I think, you know, for better or for worse, a lot of people are coming into the Paleo community from the athletic CrossFit world. I love that we have that, you know, that in and that crossover, and I love that that’s the community that I’ve come from. You know? It’s great. It’s fantastic. It’s very preventative and you know, I don’t want to diminish that at all. But I think that the perception of what people should look like just because they choose, you know, to learn about a different way of eating and food quality is warped. And it bugs me that somebody would pass judgment on somebody else who they don’t know what their life was like, you know. How many people listening today didn’t know that Jimmy used to weigh over 400 pounds? You know, or that you know, I’ve also struggled with weight in the past and you know, how many other people in that room have had the same struggle. And so when you see somebody at first or when you see a snapshot of them in a blog post about this event, and you pass a judgment without really knowing who that person is, I think it’s ill-informed and it’s inappropriate. And I got really upset when I saw those comments. It just was like, you know what? That’s not-that’s one thing that as educators, I want to pass on that message to people who are out there that you need to be compassionate and you need to understand that our goal with spreading this message is not to alienate people, it’s to be welcoming and to help them just to learn how to put better fuel into their body and just live a healthier lifestyle. And however long it takes them to reach whatever their goal may be, that’s up to them. Like it’s not up to each one of us to get involved in other people’s lives in that way. We do what we can to help them and that’s it.
And then to that same point, you know, the comments specifically about…somebody mentioned something about, you know, a lot of the men look very lean and the women didn’t. And this is one of the things where like, I think Melissa McEwen had talked about this before. I know you’ve talked about it. But women who are too lean and who have issues with menstruation and ovulation, which I hear about very, very often, so you know, as a practitioner, I’m seeing this. Or just infertility in general. That’s not a healthy woman. So when you see an athlete who’s out there or a figure competitor, and I saw some pictures floating around and you know, getting a little bit on a tangent here, but a picture floating around Facebook with…it was some, like goal that this person had to look like this super lean figure model, and I’m like, great, you know, she looks like that and is living a natural, healthy lifestyle, I don’t begrudge her that at all. But if this is a picture that we’re putting out there for women to aspire to, it may not be a healthy image to be putting out there. I think being fit and strong is amazingly positive as a goal, but at the cost of, you know, health and fertility, which you know, fertility is what, the ultimate sign of health, right? And that’s something very Weston A. Price-oriented in thinking. I just don’t want women to think that they need to constantly be uber-thin to be able to stand in front of this Paleo community and say, I’m a healthy person and I have a message to share. And that’s something that I know, you know, as practitioners, it’s tough for us to be like, we’re healthy people, you know. Get this message from us, and help people to understand that they shouldn’t be looking consistently at, you know, women who are shredded, who’ve dieted down and starved themselves to get there, and think that that’s what they need to work on.
LIZ WOLFE:[xxx 34: 28] not necessarily all, but some cases, definitely.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:Exactly. Some people are naturally that way, and that’s totally fine. I don’t want people to think that I, you know, don’t think that people can be very healthy and lean and that’s their thing, but if it’s not what’s natural for you, then that aspiration is unhealthy. Does that make sense? I mean, Jimmy, do you have thoughts on that? That we’re kind of going around. Do you kind of [xxx 34:53] that?
JIMMY MOORE:Yeah, I mean, it’s funny because people will say things online that they would never ever say to your face. You guys know I’m a tall guy. I’m a big guy. And so, you know, I think about some of these people that leave these comments like that, Diane, and it’s like, you would never say that to my face.
JIMMY MOORE:And it’s a shame, but at the same time, it’s kind of indicative of the influence that you’re having. If you’re starting to have those kind of comments happening, you know you’re doing something right. [laughs]
JIMMY MOORE:And so, you know, you kind of have to embrace them as part of the process, and no, I don’t think it has any place in the decorum of ideas of what we’re talking about, and I’ll even take it one step further. There were several people who wrote to me and said, I’d love to go to PaleoFX, but I don’t look the part.
JIMMY MOORE:And I was like, you know, there’s not going to be any judgment there. I’m not exactly looking the part either, and yet, I’m going to be there. Come. And some people, they just felt a little bit, you know, withdrawn because they see things on certain websites where they talk about how people look and it just discourages some. So I say we ignore those people who are discouraging people. We embrace those people who are encouraging them, and at the end of the day, the discouragers are going to probably become more and more irrelevant as time goes by.
LIZ WOLFE:I-Jimmy, I totally had that exact same thought even as a panelist coming to PaleoFX. I remember telling my husband, literally having a bit of a breakdown and saying, I don’t look like what I think people want me to look like. And just feeling fear…
JIMMY MOORE:Oh, you’re gorgeous. Hush.
LIZ WOLFE:Well, but that’s the thing. That’s another thing to this point. We are all way too hard on ourselves, and this is nothing if not a community of people with integrity and people who are genuine about wanting to be healthy, and as long as you’re carrying that with you, that, you know, honest desire to seek and be better, I don’t care what you look like. There is no right or wrong or more attractive or less attractive or whatever it is I was feeling at the time. It’s all just how genuine you are about learning and moving forward. But truly, I had that little breakdown ’cause it’s easy when you’re behind your blog to feel like, oh, I don’t look my best today, but that’s okay. But it’s scary when you get all together with these people that are your role models. I mean, a lot of the people there at PaleoFX are my role models, and I want to be as good as they are. I want to have it all figured out, and I don’t, so that’s my…
JIMMY MOORE:Well, you looked fantastic. I remember in your little 20 minute podcast that you guys did. That was hilarious, by the way. You were talking about…you were obsessing about your toes or something during your whole presentation. I’m like, nobody was paying attention to your toes!
LIZ WOLFE:[laughs] So true. So true. Nobody. I have no trolls in my comments, you know, telling me how disgusting my toes were. That’s for sure. [laughs]
DIANE SANFILIPPO:I think it’s-I actually thought it was funny. Somebody commented…I don’t know if it was maybe over Twitter, I think, after our little panel. I think it was just the one of myself, you Liz, and Diana, that somebody said something about us all looking like radiant or healthy and glowing. And I was like…
DIANE SANFILIPPO:you know what? That is the best compliment somebody could give that like, you know, they just see that we’re healthy and I was joking around, kind of all week, that I’m like, I feel really healthy right now, you know. I’m pretty sure I’m probably really fertile, I’ve no idea about this, like, you know…
DIANE SANFILIPPO:I don’t, you know. I was like wow, I probably would have felt better at a Weston A. Price conference because I think that’s probably, you know, their whole goal is to make women like super healthy and fertile, and make sure they’re eating tons of you know, good fats and fat-soluble vitamins and all that. But I think it’s pretty cool, too, that even you know within our…the leaders in this community, and I think, you know, all of us are in that arena. I think one thing is it’s cool that guys like Robb Wolf, Mark Sisson, Chris Kresser, who else can I think of? I don’t know off the top of my head, like they all look really different. You know, and that’s cool. Like we all have a different build. We all have different types of activity that we like to do, and you know, I think it’s great that we as practitioners and as educators, bloggers, etc., like we present a picture of health that’s varied because, you know, I say this all the time in the seminar, like if you’ve got 10 pounds to lose, I’m less interested in helping you than I am in helping somebody with an autoimmune condition. Like, for me, and I think for you, too, Liz, and I think for you, too, Jimmy, getting people to lose weight, you know, and maybe if it’s excessive weight, that’s one thing, but it’s more about just getting people healthy and so I think to that point, having, you know, the public at large who are in this Paleo community or just stepping into, continuing to send the message that this is about help. Aesthetics are great. Like everybody wants to look better naked, that’s totally cool. We get it. You know, a bunch of us are going to be on the Low Carb Cruise, and you know, we all want to look nice, but I think the real message that we do want to send is this is about health. It’s going to look different for everyone. There’s a process for everyone. You’re not meeting everyone at their quote unquote final stage of whatever. Every-every single person is a work in progress, whether that’s from the outside or the inside, and so, you know, it’s just that message that I want to continue to send as an educator that, you know, don’t judge somebody based on how they look. Hear their story, learn from them, and just, you know, continue to move forward with your own journey and learn and experiment from here. So …
JIMMY MOORE:And how much would we lose from people if we didn’t listen to them, even if they didn’t have the perfect physique? Like me, I mean, if my podcasts weren’t there, I’d…sometimes like I kid people. Okay, I’ll just take all the podcasts down from the Internet. You won’t get to have any of those anymore. They won’t be there. Would the world be a better place without that? You know, and I think I’m contributing something to the world, even though I’m not quite all the way there, I feel like that doesn’t make my voice any less important to get out there, and there’s a lot of people like me that are just too afraid because they’re afraid of the condemnation that will come down on them.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:And I think that’s a good point to bring up, and I think nobody is there, though. You know what I mean? Like as much as you may have this view of it being, you know, continued quest for health, you know, whether it’s weight loss or whatever it may be. Even people that look a picture of health from the outside, nobody is at some final destination. You know what I mean? This is all a journey for everyone. You know, we’re all getting a little bit older every year and new things crop up. So I’m sure even guys like Robb and Mark and Chris, you know, I keep kind of calling on them as some of the leaders you know that we look to, you know. None of them are perfect, and people want to put them on a pedestal, but they’re human. You know? And they’ve all gone through experimentation with themselves and what to dial in, but I can pretty much guarantee that I would never call one of them “perfect” because it’s not human. You know? And I think that they are amazing examples, and I love what they teach, and I think they’re fantastic. No discredit to any of that. But I just…I don’t want people to put other humans on a pedestal without recognizing like we are all human, and we are all just educating on this process.
So to that point, do you have some notes maybe or some thoughts you want to share on the panel that went on on the idea of optimization vs. performance? Because I think that’s also, you know, a little bit of this that we’re talking about, you know, the people that are optimizing their nutrition, just for general health, and then those who are really taking it from the performance perspective.
JIMMY MOORE:Yeah, it was interesting. We had quite the diverse panel from Dallas Hartwig to Paul Jaminet to Dr. Ron Rosedale to Mark Sisson. I mean, really people from all walks of this…of kind of both sides of the journey. And I remember when I first got this topic, you guys. I was like, what? [laughs] I didn’t know what they were talking about, and the more I thought about, the more I looked into it, it was like, yeah, there may be some differences when it comes to, you know, eating Paleo for performance, which is what a lot of CrossFitters are doing. And then people that just need to eat to be optimally healthy, and so yeah, there was quite the discussion when it came to, say, quality of the food that they put in their mouth, the calories, maybe there’s a little more calories when you’re talking about performance vs. optimizing for health. When it came down to it, most of them agreed that, you know, it doesn’t really matter what you’re trying to do, Paleo will work. And it’s the same diet. Sure there may be a few more safe starches that you want for optimization, for fitness, that you wouldn’t necessarily have for being healthy, and again, it was an individualized thing. That was a really fascinating panel. It was horrible because I was starting to get a cold then. I couldn’t really concentrate too well, but it was a really, really good panel. The questions-it was a packed room. It was one of the little side rooms. We had 3 different rooms all at the same time, and it was one of the side rooms, and I mean, they literally could have put that one out front and center. It was just so many people. It was very well received.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:Did you kind of get a feel for some different points of view and different…I’m kind of calling them characters. But some of the new faces that we brought into this community, I think Dr. Rosedale, he’s been in the sort of low carb community, right? For awhile, but kind of making this transition over, and I don’t know if you knew Dr. Kalish before. I actually kind of go way back with Dr. Kalish, who I was thrilled to see him on some of the panels last week because I think he’s got a lot to say, and I love his attitude and approach. I’m actually curious if he and Chris Kresser knew each other because they’re both in the Bay Area. I don’t think Dr. Kalish knew what Chris did, when he referred to him as an acupuncturist at one of our panels, like, yeah, he kind of does more than that at this point.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:But yeah, I’m just curious if you had any other takeaways on some of the new faces that we’ve seen, and maybe want to give people a heads up as to some new people to kind of check out and follow and that sort of thing about all this.
JIMMY MOORE:Absolutely. You know who impressed me the most. He was on a couple of panels that I saw and on one of my panels…it was Dr. Lane Sebring.
JIMMY MOORE:He was the doctor that was featured in the In Search of the Perfect Human Diet movie that we heard about from CJ Hunt who was also there. He was amazing. I mean, I was really enamored by the way that he went about things, and it wasn’t this kind of “do this, don’t do that.” It was more of, “Well, let’s try this and let’s test this,” and I really liked his practical way of seeing things. And the people who will see In Search of the Perfect Human Diet on…you’re going to see Dr. Sebring in there and the whole food vs. non-food. I just think he brings a lot more clarity to this discussion than we’ve seen before. So he’s definitely a name that people should be on the lookout for.
And yeah, I love Dr. Ron Rosedale, and yes, he’s still very much a low carber, and you know, I was talking to my wife, Christine when I got home. I’m like, oh, I so wish Dr. Jeff Volek could have been at this thing, and Dr. Steve Finney, and some of the other low carbers because they do bring some sense of research experience to the table that may not have been talked about, but for Dr. Rosedale being there. He was pretty much of the only ones that was articulating some of the concepts, but yeah, I think he’s an invaluable addition to this community, and kind of keeping things on track.
And I love Paul Jaminet. I love the fact that he brings an alternative perspective, even though I may not agree with everything he advocates for. He’s definitely someone you can’t ignore. He’s definitely putting out ideas that people are embracing and loving, and finding benefit from, and from my perspective, that’s a very good thing.
LIZ WOLFE:Most definitely. Are you still there, Jimmy? Did we lose you?
JIMMY MOORE:I am here.
LIZ WOLFE:Great. Oh my gosh.
JIMMY MOORE:It’s a dramatic pause.
LIZ WOLFE:Dramatic pause. I think Dr. Sebring is actually local to Austin, if I’m correct.
JIMMY MOORE:He is in that area. Uh hunh.
LIZ WOLFE:Funnily enough, we actually had a valet at the hotel we stayed at the last night who heard us say the word “Paleo” and just jumped all over it and was saying, Do you know Dr. Sebring? Do you know these people? Oh my gosh, I didn’t even know this symposium was going on.
JIMMY MOORE:Yeah, yeah.
LIZ WOLFE:So I think he got some reach in the non-Paleo community as well, from a nutritional perspective. So that’s really cool.
JIMMY MOORE:At the 24 Diner that we went to, a group of us went out to…the waitress was asking what we were there for, and we were telling her about PaleoFX, and she’s like, Oh, I need to eat healthy. I mean, we were like talking to everybody in Austin about Paleo, like yeah, give it a try, you know, give it the 30 days.
LIZ WOLFE:[laughs] Yeah.
JIMMY MOORE:And see how you do.
LIZ WOLFE:Totally. Speaking of kind of the practical implementation of these ideas, Diane, I wanted you to jump in there, and Jimmy, I think you were at this panel, I can’t remember. But the panel we were on, Whole Foods vs. Supplements where we all kind of agreed on 3 superfoods that myself, you, Diana, Chris Kresser, Dr. Kalish and oh gosh, a couple of other people all agreed that everybody should be incorporating. Do you want to wave that flag real quick?
DIANE SANFILIPPO:Yeah, it was really funny because as we went down the line for the people who were there. I knew that you were going to say some of the same things I was going to say, but I was like, don’t steal mine! But you know, we all kind of agreed on 3 foods or 3, you know, whole food type supplements that we would recommend, and I think maybe this is a nice thing to share with the listeners, and I’ll add the other couple that kind of came in that I think are also really valid. But you know, you guys have been listening to us for a long time, reading our blogs. So we all recommend bone broth, homemade, real bone broth, for its mineral content, for its gelatin content, for its amino acid content, collagen, all of those things that are amazing for gut health. It just-the integrity of our system at large, just some really, you know that whole, your grandmother told you chicken soup was healthy. Well, it was when it was made from scratch. But people starting making it out of the can or a box…
LIZ WOLFE:When it was actually made from real chicken.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:From chick-made from real chicken. So yeah, the bone broth was kind of the number one, we had liver pretty much and organ meats as number 2, and I think, you know, you and I have said a million times now the whole fermented cod liver oil/butter oil blend. Our house in Austin had 3 bottles of that in the refrigerator, so [laughs] out of ten people, we were using that.
JIMMY MOORE:Can I ask where you get that from? Because I actually went to my vitamin shop just yesterday….
JIMMY MOORE:Trying to find it and the guy looked at me cross-eyed and went, I don’t know what that is.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:We-yeah, we’ll link to it from the post on this podcast, but we get that from Green Pasture. I think it’s GreenPasture.org.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:and they, you know, Liz had recommended to me the blend with the butter oils. Some people eat a lot of grass-fed butter, which I do, but I bought that one anyway, and I got the cinnamon flavored gel. It’s not for me the easiest thing to take, but I see the difference taking it, most notably for me, my skin. The skin on my face is amazingly different from taking it, but I know there are a ton of other benefits for that, and one of the things that I try and teach people about why to take that is that most people aren’t eating tons of organ meat. It’s really hard to get fat soluble vitamins from anywhere other than organ meats, at this point. Vitamin A, D, vitamin K, we’re getting from that butter, vitamin K2. But the vitamin A that we’re getting from that cod liver oil supplement is pretty amazing, and it’s, you know, end formed vitamin A; it’s not carotenoids like in carrots that we can’t really convert very efficiently. So you know, an analogy for that, too, is like people who are taking flax oil, thinking they’re getting a usable form of omega-3 in their system, the EPA or DHA. That conversion is not that efficient from the flax oil form vs. something like, you know, fish oil, which is the end form. Same thing with that cod liver oil, end form, DHA/omega-3 that we can use in our body. So similarly, if people are eating tons of carrots thinking they’re getting vitamin A from the carrots, well, it needs to go through conversions in your system that for a lot of reasons are not that efficient. So, you know, getting that real vitamin A from liver is just like one of the best things you can do, and I think any time we need to supplement with something, if we can get it from the food obviously first that’s ideal. And I love food based supplements, so that’s why I love this cod liver oil/butter oil blend.
And then the third, which, I, you know, like to crown myself the queen of sauerkraut.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:Raw, homemade, fermented sauerkraut, or, you know, if you’re getting it small batch. I know, Jimmy, you said you went to some kind of farmers market recently and got some, and we did talk a bunch, and a lot of the different panels, Thyroid Health has been a really big topic, and I know you’re going to bring Chris Kresser on to your show soon to talk about that.
JIMMY MOORE:Mm-hmm. Yup.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:People have been concerned if they’ve been listening to Chris’s podcast or radio show, and he’s been talking with Chris Masterjohn about thyroid and goitrogens, okay, so raw fermented sauerkraut, which is cabbage, which is a goitrogenic food, fermenting it actually increases the goitrogens levels, so I always recommend just fermenting something else. So ferment carrots. You can shred them and ferment them just as well. Beets, if you like that, but fermented foods, I think, and I didn’t say this in the panel, but I think that the saving grace of our gut health of the last 30 to 50 years has been that the country is kind of addicted to yogurt. [laughs]
DIANE SANFILIPPO:And like we’ve gotten away…
JIMMY MOORE:Low fat.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:Yeah, low fat, but you know what? For better or for worse, people were getting some form of probiotic and if it hadn’t been for the yogurt, not that I think that most of what’s out there, you know 99% of yogurt out there is not something I would recommend that people eat, but if it hadn’t been for that, and that boom of antibiotic use, you know, against it, we’d probably have been a lot worse off, but you know what, let’s bring back that trend of the traditional foods, which is what Liz and I try and interject a lot with the whole Weston A. Price perspective into Paleo. Let’s bring back those traditional foods with the fermented vegetables, even if it’s a little bit of kombucha, that fermented tea. That’s fermented on sugar, but, you know, the vegetables are fermenting on their own sugar as well.
And then a couple of other things I just wanted to point out that…the other supplements that people recommended in the food forum after the bone broth, the liver or cod liver oil supplement and the sauerkraut were sea vegetables, which are awesome, something that I talk about sometimes, not a ton, but Diana Rodgers brought this one up. So, you know, people see like Sea Snax out there. You can also get things like kelp or some other sea veggies, dulse, things like that that you can literally just throw a little bit of that into the broth that you’re making. We’re getting tons of minerals from those sea vegetables. We’re also getting iodine from them. I know a lot of people use iodide salt to get some iodine.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:I’m not sure…yeah, I’m not really sure how I feel about that. I just think it’s-yeah, it’s way too processed. We just don’t know. so I would rather people eat some sea vegetables. You’re also, if you’re all concerned about iodine and the thyroid, getting it from a whole food source, it’s way less risky than, you know, any supplementation because you’re getting a balance of other minerals. It’s just always better to get it from a food source.
And then the last one was vitamin D from the sun, which then we started talking about tanning booths, and it got a little Jersey Shore, but it was really…
DIANE SANFILIPPO:[laughs] really kind of funny.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:Yeah, so…
JIMMY MOORE:There was one other thing..
DIANE SANFILIPPO:So…yeah, we were going to ask if there were any other-those were our sort of 3 plus 2, but yeah, what else did you have?
JIMMY MOORE:Because I actually tweeted the whole list while y’all were doing that. I was like, okay, what’s next? All right, what’s next? The only one you missed besides, well, the sunlight, probiotics, seaweed, butter oil blend, sauerkraut, cod liver oil, and bone broth was the liver cleanse. Somebody had mentioned a liver…
DIANE SANFILIPPO:Oh, yeah.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:Dr. Kalish mentioned that.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:You know what, I actually thought that it was kind of a fledgling topic that he’s interjecting into the community now. Like, okay, we’ve had the starch-safe starch-low carb, you know, debate. We’re starting to talk more about cholesterol and thyroid and all of those things. And I think the liver detox issue and also neurotransmitter status, which are two things that Dr. Kalish talks about a lot, and I think he’s super interesting, smart guy, I love listening to his stuff, but yeah, liver detox. I’ve heard also Dr. Bryan Walsh, have you ever talked to him, Jimmy?
JIMMY MOORE:Oh yeah, oh yeah. Fat is not your fault.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:Yeah, so he’s talked a lot about that, too. Something like there’s an herb that people can use called Milk Thistle. And that’s the liver detox support herb, and you know, you really can’t overdo it very easily with that. But that was something that I think Dr. Kalish was kind of pointing to that, you know, we’re kind of inundated with toxins in the environment. People who are eating non-organic food, but even beyond that, just what’s outside, you know, in plastics and chemicals, toxins in the air, everything that we’re taking in. So supporting our liver, and I talk about that kind of a lot in my seminars to just supporting your liver and its job to do what it needs to do. So yeah, that was definitely a good one from Dr. Kalish.
JIMMY MOORE:So you know how I celebrated PFX when I got home? I made a big old Crockpot full of bone broth.
LIZ WOLFE:You and Miss America did the same thing. You guys…I forgot that…
DIANE SANFILIPPO:Mrs. United States.
LIZ WOLFE:Mrs. United States-Shannon Ford, yeah, Yep. She was great. So Jimmy and Shannon both making the bone broth to celebrate the conclusion of PaleoFX. That is awesome. [laughs]
DIANE SANFILIPPO:I love it. I love it.
JIMMY MOORE:Come over, I’ll give you some here in a minute. [laughs]
LIZ WOLFE:Yeah. Well, we’re closing in on an hour. Jimmy, thank you so much for being with us today. I know you and Diane are going to see each other on the Low Carb Cruise. I don’t know if you want…
LIZ WOLFE:to let everybody know what it’s all about real quick before we wrap up?
JIMMY MOORE:Yup. Go to LowCarbCruiseInfo.com. We’re going to have a dozen speakers. We’re going to have Tom Naughton. We’ll be roasting all those speakers. You pretty much think anybody and everybody in the low carb, they’re going to be at this event. And we’re going to have lots of great people like Diane in the audience who will be just representing the Paleo perspective. It’s going to be a great time and really look forward to having over 250 people on board, one of the Carnival Ships leaving out of Galveston, Texas May 6 through the 13th, 2012.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:And is there still room for people if they want to register?
JIMMY MOORE:Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
JIMMY MOORE:It might be a little more expensive now because we’re down to like 6 weeks before the cruise, but…
JIMMY MOORE:you can still sign up.
LIZ WOLFE:Perfect. So everybody go check that out. Yeah, we’ll link to that in the show notes and if you’re enjoying the podcast, head on over to iTunes, drop us a review, and if you aren’t enjoying it, well, you’re probably not listening anymore, so bon voyage.
JIMMY MOORE:Who can’t enjoy your podcast? [laughs] Love your podcast.
LIZ WOLFE:Who wouldn’t? Thanks, Jimmy. Thanks again for being with us, Jimmy, and y’all come back now. Thanks for listening. We’ll see you next week.
Diane & Liz