Balanced Bites Podcast | Diane Sanfilippo & Liz Wolfe

Podcast Episode #292: Nutrition Challenges & Mindset

Diane Sanfilippo Featured, Paleo and Primal, Podcast Episodes 4 Comments

Balanced Bites Podcast | Diane Sanfilippo & Liz WolfeTopics

  1. News and updates from Diane & Liz [2:04]
  2. Something we're digging and an impromptu shout out [11:32]
  3. Nutrition challenges and mindset [16:08]
  4. Can an Abstainer become a Moderator? [21:00]
  5. Food reintroduction and cravings [26:44]
  6. Balance and grace [36:56]
  7. Finding your why [42:08]
  8. Social support [47:37]
  9. Habit hacking [51:58]

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You’re listening to the Balanced Bites podcast episode 292.

Diane Sanfilippo: Welcome to the Balanced Bites podcast. I’m Diane; a certified nutrition consultant, and the New York Times bestselling author of Practical Paleo and The 21-Day Sugar Detox. I live in San Francisco with my husband and fur kids.

Liz Wolfe: I’m Liz; a nutritional therapy practitioner, and author of the Wall Street Journal best-seller Eat the Yolks; The Purely Primal Skincare Guide; and the online program Baby Making and Beyond. I live on a farm in the mystical land of the Midwest, outside of Kansas City.

We’re the co-creators of the Balanced Bites Master Class, and we’ve been bringing you this award winning podcast for 5 years and counting. We’re here to share our take on modern paleo living, answer your questions, and chat with leading health and wellness experts. Enjoy this week’s episode, and submit your questions at http://balancedbites.com. Or, watch the Balanced Bites podcast Instagram account for our weekly calls for questions. You can ask us anything in the comments.

Remember our disclaimer: The materials and content within this podcast are intended as general information only, and are not to be considered a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Before we get started, let’s hear from one of our sponsors.

Liz Wolfe: The Balanced Bites podcast is sponsored in part by the Nutritional Therapy Association. The NTA trains and certifies nutritional therapy practitioners and consultants (including me; I’m an NTP), emphasizing bio-individuality and the range of dietary strategies that support wellness. The NTA emphasizes local, whole, properly prepared nutrient dense foods as the key to restoring balance and enhancing the body’s ability to heal. Nutritional therapy practitioners and consultants learn a wide range of tools and techniques to assess and correct nutritional imbalances. To learn lots more about the nutritional therapy program, go to http://www.NutritionalTherapy.com. There are workshop venues in the US, Canada, and Australia, so chances are you’ll be able to find a venue that works for you.

1. News and updates from Diane & Liz [2:04]

Liz Wolfe: Hey everyone! It’s me, Liz, here with Diane. Hello friend.

Diane Sanfilippo: How you doing?

Liz Wolfe: Hello. I’m doing just fine, thanks. And you?

Diane Sanfilippo: Doing alright. I’m hoping that spring comes back to San Francisco, but besides that, doing alright.

Liz Wolfe: Very good. What are you updates for this week?

Diane Sanfilippo: So a couple of updates. I mentioned last week that this weeks’ Diane Direct vlog over on the YouTube channel was going to be a keto/low carb eating video. Which it is. So make sure you guys check that out. And to make sure that you’re getting the videos from YouTube, all you need to do is click the little red subscribe button on the YouTube channel, or any of the videos, and you’ll get a little notification, along with any other YouTube-y type things you might be watching. But hopefully that will be a great place, also, if you are kind of offline for a little while, and you want to kind of circle back and see what’s been going on. I know one Instagram follower made a comment that she had had a baby recently, and felt like she was out of the loop and has missed a bunch of whatever was being shared. So I think between the podcast, where you guys can always go back to the archives and check them out, and the YouTube channel, you won’t need to have social media FOMO. You can just check out what’s going on in the videos. And I’m really going to be very focused in terms of topics that I’m talking about each week. So you can check that out.

And then another reminder that the 21-Day Sugar Detox Coaches program is opening at the end of May. So if that’s something you’ve been interested in, definitely make sure that you hop over to the Facebook group. It’s Facebook interest group for 21-Day Sugar Detox coaches. We put all of the information there, and it’s a great little community. Kind of a holding spot for those who are interested. We’ll let you guys know there as soon as it’s open. Enrollment for it will be open for a minimum of about a week. It may be 2, but I’m not positive. We don’t necessarily limit the number of people coming in, but I will keep an eye on it, and if seems like there may be too many for how many folks we can manage, between my team. We’ve got a couple of program managers, and myself, and a couple of other moderates. If it seems like it’s going to be too many people, then we may close it sooner. So just keep your eyes and ears open for that. I don’t want you to miss it if you’ve been waiting. And I know lots of folks have been waiting. So we’ll see you inside that. What’s going over in your neck of the woods?

Liz Wolfe: Not a whole lot of note. Sorry, got nothing.

Diane Sanfilippo: You have a new duck coop. Did you talk about that last week? I don’t even remember.

Liz Wolfe: I did indeed. Talked about that last week. New duck coop, new chicken coop. Springtime at the farm. Things are growing. Ticks are coming out of the woodwork.

Diane Sanfilippo: New team member on team Real Food Liz.

Liz Wolfe: Isn’t that crazy?

Diane Sanfilippo: That’s news. That’s exciting.

Liz Wolfe: It is exciting. I guess I can bring that update. I have an amazing new ops manager, project manager. I don’t know that we’ve really decided what to call it. But basically I kind of got to that tipping point where I needed to make this an efficient business that was reaching people and helping people in a systemic way, rather than losing a ton of energy and just trying to fit things in during nap time. So I needed somebody to whip me into shape, and help get some systems in place so I can deliver on some promises. And also, just very basically so I can feel like the time spent away from my kid is productive and {laughs} not entirely directionless.

Diane Sanfilippo: I think that’s a really good update, because there are probably lots of new moms, or to-be moms, or not-as-new moms, who knows what, who feel the same way.

Liz Wolfe: Yeah.

Diane Sanfilippo: That that time away is not always as focused as it could be, or productive, or what have you. So yay, super excited.

Liz Wolfe: Well, and it was obviously with a ton of help from you. I need to check with this fabulous project manager to see if she wants an official public introduction {laughs}. I’m sure she’ll be ok with that. She’s amazing. She’s got a lot of her own stuff going on, too. But a lot of this was in part, of course, based on your encouragement.

Diane Sanfilippo: That’s so nice!

Liz Wolfe: To, you know what or get off the pot.

Diane Sanfilippo: It’s such a nice way to say it! Encouragement.

Liz Wolfe: Your harassment; your constant haranguing of me, which is one of my new favorite words. But also your talk about the different personality types, I guess. I finally listened to what you’ve been saying about Obligers, and kind of dug into that a little bit. And good lord, I completely; I was screaming into this podcast.

Diane Sanfilippo: You were pegged.

Liz Wolfe: I was pegged! I was like, “that’s me!” It was an episode where Gretchen Ruben is actually talking to her sister, whose name is also Elizabeth.

Diane Sanfilippo: Yep.

Liz Wolfe: And Elizabeth is basically me. It’s funny.

Diane Sanfilippo: Yep. I am the Gretchen, and you are the Liz. It’s really funny whenever I listen to that podcast.

Liz Wolfe: It is.

Diane Sanfilippo: I’m like; there goes Gretchen, steamrolling. And I was like, I’m the steamroller. I know it. It’s fine.

Liz Wolfe: It was really, really cool and enlightening. And since then, I have listened to all podcasts that you’ve told me to listen to.

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs}

Liz Wolfe: And I will never doubt you again.

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughing}

Liz Wolfe: I didn’t doubt you so much as neglected to take you seriously because you're my friend. {laughing}

Diane Sanfilippo: That’s fine. I don’t feel any; I don’t take it personally.

Liz Wolfe: That’s the best thing about you. You don’t’ take it personally.

Diane Sanfilippo: I don’t take it personally; I just know that I’m right. So eventually you’ll come around, and you’ll be like; “Oh, you were right.”

Liz Wolfe: Yeah!

Diane Sanfilippo: And I’m like, I know. But everybody needs to discover things in their own time.

Liz Wolfe: Yes.

Diane Sanfilippo: It was the right time for you to get there, because you weren’t ready for it.

Liz Wolfe: Yes, indeed.

Diane Sanfilippo: But I think this is super relevant to our show today, too. Because different personality types really handle all kinds of things differently. And I think that’s; we’ve been talking for a couple of weeks about all this stuff, but it definitely makes for well-rounded conversation. It makes for more inviting conversation. More people feel like they can identify with me, and with you. Because we’re really similar in the way that we like to do things, but we’re super opposite in so many ways that {laughs} I think it works really well.

Liz Wolfe: Well. The cool thing was; it wasn’t just realizing that, yes, I am an Obliger and what that means. It was the fact that I was able to recontextualize what I always thought of as personality deficits, not so much as, “Well this is my problem, I have a lack of willpower.” “I can’t just buckle down and get things done because my mind wanders.” Whatever excuses I made about, “Oh well, this is a personal failing.” And this is just how I am, and it takes me a long time to get things done. And it was like; “Accept that this is how you are and implement these strategies to circumvent those issues and get things done.”

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah.

Liz Wolfe: And the solution was; get a task master that you’re obligated to. And not just like paying for a gym membership, and you’re paying the money and then you’re not going. It’s about somebody that’s going to check in with you, that’s going to run the gamut basically for you and keep you on task. And somebody that you want to, I don’t know what the word would be. Somebody that you don’t want to let down.

Diane Sanfilippo: That you're obligated to, is really the purest definition.

Liz Wolfe: Yes.

Diane Sanfilippo: I think that is at the crux of it, knowing that it’s not a personality flaw. It’s just knowing yourself better, and as we get older, we sometimes just stumble into knowing ourselves better. But I think having these frameworks really helps us to kind of put a name to it and say, “this is what will help me be more efficient. Be more of who I want to be in the world.”

And I think it was really; I don’t know when we had the conversation where I was like, “Liz. We’ve done this podcast for more than 5 years. Why do you think that’s happened?”

Liz Wolfe: Oh my god! And that was in the podcast, too, with Gretchen Ruben! Her sister was like; “I can show up for this podcast every single week, but I can’t do XYZ.”

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah. {laughing} And that’s exactly what this has been. Yeah. That’s what I was saying to you. You have done this for more than 5 years. There’s nothing else that either of us have done for that much time. And that’s me just being loyal and following through on my word, and following through with folks who have decided to sponsor the show, and maintaining that and just being a woman of my word. And that’s you as an Obliger, answering to me. Because you’re like; “Heck, I’m not going to falter on this.”

Liz Wolfe: Yeah.

Diane Sanfilippo: At least even in taking a break and then come back. It is what it is. Anyway. All super relevant to today’s topic. But I’m super excited for you, and I’m glad that it doesn’t have to be me {laughing} that you have to Oblige to for any of that.

Liz Wolfe: Thank god.

Diane Sanfilippo: And I’m really, just psyched to see what happens with everything, and psyched to see the development of all of your work.

Liz Wolfe: Yay.

Diane Sanfilippo: Yay.

Liz Wolfe: Today’s podcast is sponsored by Vital Choice seafood and organics; purveyor of premium sustainably sourced seafood and a certified B corporation. Vital choice offers a wide range of fish, shellfish, humanely raised meat, protein rich bone broths, and paleo friendly snacks like organic dark chocolate, super antioxidant trail mix, and bison jerky. From weeknight dinners to weekend brunches, www.vitalchoice.com is your source for real food.

2. Something we’re digging and an impromptu shout out [11:32]

Liz Wolfe: Alright, so I think we have a couple of things that we want to tell people about, what we’re digging this week.

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah. So it’s been a few weeks now that I’ve kind of been back to my little low-carb way of eating, want to see how I feel with this, see how my body does. And for anyone who has followed me over on Instagram, you have seen me posting about what I at home very affectionally refer to as Hundos. {laughs} I don’t know why, I have this really dorky way whenever I talk about my 100% dark chocolate, I’m like, “Oh, I’m eating some hundo right now.” {laughs} I don’t know; I think I’m just trying to make it sound more exciting than it is.

Liz Wolfe: {laughing}

Diane Sanfilippo: But anyway. I’ve got a bunch of 100% dark chocolates, and I posted at least one photo; two I think over on Instagram recently. I posted a couple of bars. I posted about the keto cups from Eating Evolved, who’s been an amazing; I don’t know, friend-brand to us for years. Remember they came to a couple of our seminars and gave out chocolates and kept people really happy while we talked about poop and things like that. So anyway, just really amazing company, Eating Evolved.

But yeah, a bunch of 100% dark chocolate bars from all different brands, and they are one of them. Their dark chocolate is called Midnight Coconut, #notsponsored. We just talk about stuff that we love when we love it. But you guys can check those out over on Instagram. Maybe we’ll add some of the photos from there of my 100% to this show notes blog post, which I think we can do with the thing that you’re super into lately. I can’t talk today {laughing}.

Liz Wolfe: {laughing}

Diane Sanfilippo: Very professional of me to raspberry. {laughs}

Liz Wolfe: That’s us. Mix the fun with the serious. So it’s my turn now? Alright, so what I’m into lately is thanks to Vanessa Bradford. Who, if I could just give her; this is a totally unplanned shout out. But a little shout out. On Instagram Vanessa.Bradford. She’s one of my favorite people to follow. She’s a certified health coach. She specializes in intuitive nutrition and disordered eating recovery. She’s just incredibly insightful and really, really fun to follow. She introduced me to, I don’t even know how to say it. Is it Siggi’s? Siggis?

Diane Sanfilippo: I think Siggi’s, but maybe that’s just because of the Real Housewives of New Jersey character named Siggy?

Liz Wolfe: I know. I know.

Diane Sanfilippo: So I don’t know.

Liz Wolfe: Who I love. Who is my favorite ever.

Diane Sanfilippo: Obsessed.

Liz Wolfe: Yeah, besides Erica Jane. Siggy’s right there. The triple cream Icelandic style strained yogurt; 9% milk fat. Which, I mean, finally we’re seeing more full fat yogurt out there. But this is just like decadent.

Diane Sanfilippo: That’s amazing.

Liz Wolfe: So good.

Diane Sanfilippo: And 4% is typically full fat, for people who aren’t aware. So if you see 4% written on something, that’s typically just regular old full-fat. So this is like, really getting up there.

Liz Wolfe: It’s no joke. So, definitely worth a look and ask at your local health food store, if they don’t have it if they’d be willing to carry it. It is spectacular. The lemon is amazing. It’s all really, really good.

Liz Wolfe: This episode of the Balanced Bites podcast is sponsored by our friends at Primally Pure Skincare. Primally Pure makes 100% natural and nontoxic skincare products that support radiant skin, a healthy body, and a happy self. They use ingredients like tallow from grass-fed cows; organic and fair trade coconut oil, and organic oils, herbs, and extracts to formulate effective products that also smell amazing and look beautiful sitting on your bathroom counter. At www.primallypure.com, you’ll find their bestselling natural deodorant that actually works; face mists made from locally sourced and organic rose and orange blossom hydrosols, and their brand new baby line. You’ll also find Diane’s favorite Primally Pure product, dry shampoo, and Liz’s favorite, the Everything Spray with magnesium. As a special bonus for you, Primally Pure is offering a free lip balm with your first purchase of one item or more. Simply add a lip balm to your cart along with any one item, and use the code “balancedbites”, one word no caps, during checkout to receive one of their lip balms for free with your order. Head to www.primallypure.com and check out their range of safe and effective all natural skincare products.

3. Nutrition challenges and mindset [16:08]

Diane Sanfilippo: Alright. So today’s topic is nutrition challenges and mindset. And not so much mindset in general, but more so about the mindset you need to be in when going through a nutrition challenge. We had a lot of great questions come in, and since a lot of them were similar; and this is kind of a way that we’re going to move forward, where we may have certain questions that we do read a specific question, but a lot of them. You guys see it when you comment on Instagram, you’re kind of “seconding” each other’s questions and reiterating with maybe a little bit more context, etc. So instead of just going one by one we want to get into the topic a little more deeply by generalizing the question a bit more. So hopefully you guys find this really helpful and enjoyable.

But the topic of moderation was a big one, and definitely worth talking about here. A lot of you also talked about Gretchen Ruben’s four tendencies, which were just talking about in our little intro. So worth a mention here, as well. So as we get into talking about the mindset around challenges. And just to refer back, you guys. There were a couple of other episodes during which we’ve talked about nutrition challenges. Actually, quite a while ago. Episode 173 was a part 1, so I believe there was also a part 2. Then we had one, episode 265 was about repeating nutrition challenges. We talked about that a bit. And also episode 276 about what dieting doesn’t resolve. And all of those, we can link again in the show notes, but you can go back and get those any time.

I think, Liz, you and I were like, “Didn’t we just talk about this?” Because we always. {laughs}

Liz Wolfe: Yeah.

Diane Sanfilippo: We feel like it was so much more recent than it was. It was like, several months ago now. But the topics come up a lot. So quickly on why moderation doesn’t work for everyone. Some people, you’ll watch your friends doing nutrition challenges all the time, and you just wonder; “Why can’t they just eat in moderation?” “Why can’t they just do this? Why does it have to be a challenge? Why do there have to be rules?”

Moderation just doesn’t work for everyone. And a thought that I had recently was that; for those of us who are Abstainers versus Moderators; meaning we just do better when we have none. Which is me when it comes to; if I’m eating low-carb, I just don’t want to have any of the sugar. Because I feel better, I do better. It’s off my mind if it’s off the table. Literally, I am not thinking about sugar at all. And that’s just what happens to me.

So the question has come up; “Can an Abstainer become a Moderator?” Because it seems like moderation is easier or better or what have you. I think when there is something that, for an Abstainer, it feels better when they abstain. It’s calmer and easier for them; for us, then no. But there are some foods, and some behaviors, or habits that for me, they may be things that I do in moderation. But I don’t think that makes me a moderator. At my core, when I find something to be problematic for me, it needs to be something I abstain from.

So that’s where I think this comes in; the notion of abstaining or moderating. If you find that there’s a food; we’re just going to say food because this is what our {laughs} main topic of our show is. If there’s a food that’s really problematic for me, it’s just easier for me to never have it. Whereas with Liz; if dried mango makes her want to fall face first into 3 bags of dried mango, but she actually can just have some dried mango and put the rest away and whatever. Kind of have that stopping point. Whereas for me, I would probably just eat the whole bag. Whatever the bag is, that’s the serving.

So I think that’s the difference. It’s not just that I can’t ever moderate something; it’s when there is something sort of problematic, what works better for me. And it works better for me to just never have it.

Liz Wolfe: Just to add a little bit of nuance to that, too. I might eat the whole bag of dried mango; and then I’m kind of like, “Oh, I just ate a whole bag of dried mango, no biggie.” Moving on. Whereas some folks would do that, and it would be like, “I’m done. I’m done. Now I’m going to eat cookies and ice c ream and nachos.” Which there’s nothing wrong with nachos. But they that mental state where they’re like, “Oh god. Eating a whole bag means something.” Whereas I don’t assign meaning to that. At least not anymore.

4. Can an Abstainer become a Moderator? [21:00]

Diane Sanfilippo: That’s a good little nuance about that, too. And I think; you know, maybe for an Abstainer it is because we assign more meaning to certain things. Maybe that’s part of it. So a couple of questions came in from Abstainers who want to be moderators, and one listener who loved sweets wishes she didn’t have to avoid them, and wants to do a reset to be able to keep that in check. I don’t think there’s any one answer to, “Will a reset mean I’m cured of my love for sweets.” Or what have you. I just don’t know that we can answer all of that in 30 days, or 21 days, or 3 months. Whatever it’s going to be. There are some people who go off of sugar for 6 months, and then have it again.

And I think sometimes we put too much energy into this all the time. But I don’t know that we can really move back and forth. But I do think that there can be foods that at one point in time, as an Abstainer, you could not moderate that food. And I do think that in time, it’s possible to have that relationship with it, where you just no longer assign that kind of value to it.

Liz Wolfe: Mm-hmm.

Diane Sanfilippo: I do think it’s possible. Because I’ve definitely had that experience for me. But it typically follows a long period off having abstained from it. If that makes sense. I can’t really get to a place where I feel I can be moderate if I haven’t abstained from it. I don’t know if that; that doesn’t resonate with you because it’s not how you are. But let’s just say it’s tortilla chips. {laughs} Nachos and tortilla chips. For me, if they’re part of my weekly life, where I was eating them a couple of times a week. For me, it would be much harder for me to then go several weeks and not have them and not want to have them. Because they become part of my every day. Versus if I mostly don’t eat them, and then have them once. I don’t see that as moderation. That’s just kind of a break {laughs} in abstaining.

Liz Wolfe: A break in abstaining. {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: You know what I mean? To me, moderation; and maybe this isn’t what most people think of as moderation. To me, moderation is a little bit any time you feel like, and there isn’t anything else. If you just want some tortilla chips, you can just have some, and you don’t need to have all of them.

Liz Wolfe: Yeah.

Diane Sanfilippo: I need to have all of them.

Liz Wolfe: I have a little of that. I have a little of that and then; like I can eat a couple of bites of ice cream and then put the ice cream away. I can have enough to satisfy whatever I kind of wanted in that moment without attaching anything to it that leads me to eat more of it. But I could also say to myself, “I want a whole tub of ice cream.” And then I might have it, and I wouldn’t attach meaning to it.

But there’s also; there are so many. It’s not just I am a blank. I am a Moderator, an Abstainer. It’s, I am a mom of a 2-year-old who doesn’t have time to do X, but I have time to do Y, and somehow that feeds into my approach to nutrition right now which is; I don’t know. Some people might just call it “loosey-goosey.” For me, it’s just grace and survival and getting in as many good foods as I can, but also recognizing how to choose more treat-like foods in a way that is not completely degrading to my overall health. So if I’m going to eat ice cream, it’s going to be ice cream that’s made of cream, egg yolks, and sugar. It’s not going to be carrageenan, and whatever. Trans fats or what have you. It’s not going to be a million ingredients.

It’s just; you know, the path changes as you walk. Sometimes you’re on asphalt, sometimes you’re on brick, and sometimes you’re on stepping stones across a raging rapid, and you’re just kind of figuring things out based on whatever else is going on in your life. So there’s a flux. There’s totally a flux, and there are different ways that you look at foods at different points in your life for different reasons. And I think the unifying theme is, if you can step back and, even for a moment just suspend your disbelief. Suspend your skepticism, and just step back, and be curious about this person. This body that you inhabit. This person who is you. And just try to observe. Be curious. And gather some information, and kind of remove a lot of that socially conditioned and culturally charged narration that happens in our minds, and just take that minute to think about, “Oh, maybe I’m this way because of this.” Gather some self-insight. I think it will make it a lot easier to orchestrate the minutia of your relationship with food when you do your best to remove a lot of that, I don’t know, external narrative about it. Wow, I just said a lot of things. I have no idea.

Diane Sanfilippo: That was very touchy-feely.

Liz Wolfe: Yeah {laughs}.

Diane Sanfilippo: Well one thing that I think does change over time as you focus on real food and get rid of a lot of the junk, and perhaps more so; {laughs} more or less so depending on how good you are at cooking. Which sometimes I do think that being really good at cooking is actually not the best thing, sometimes.

Liz Wolfe: Yeah. {laughs}

5. Food reintroduction and cravings [26:44]

Diane Sanfilippo: Because {laughs} I know how to combine flavors to make food hyperpalatable, even when it’s real food made in my own kitchen. But that does come into play with this idea of; somebody is asking about cravings. How do you allow a food back in once a challenge is over, but not going crazy on it? And I think this is where making stuff at home and not going for the poor quality; “Let me just have tons of gluten-free cookies now that my challenge is over.” Or, “let me eat this candy bar,” and it’s like, super high-sugar content sugar, what have you. This is where I think focusing on high-quality, maybe it’s more expensive so you can’t buy as much of it. Maybe you continue to talk to yourself as an adult, as we do, year after year, where we say; “Yeah, I might want a whole pint of ice cream.” We’ll just use that example. But guess what? I don’t have to have the whole pint. Because if I have a couple of bites, and I just pause, I’ll probably get that sweet treat, whatever it was that I wanted, and this ice cream will still be here.

I think that’s a really important little pause moment to have with yourself, when you do feel like you haven’t gotten to a point where you’re not obsessing about it. I think the questions are coming from people who are still really struggling with, “I do the challenge and then I just want to go back to all the things I was eating before.” And I think you need to get a point where you realize you're a Questioner, and you go through a challenge, and you followed the rules for the period of time, and then you just keep wanting to eat the foods, if you know that you’re a Questioner, and you can’t really figure this out, you need more answers as to why you’re eating a certain way for your body. And I don’t think it’s about being super strict all the time, either. Because if you want to make a paleo treat in your house, and not freak out about it, then it’s fine. I think for everyone, it’s a little bit different; how to not go crazy after a challenge is over.

When you did a paleo challenge many years ago; I think you did it once and that was it. And I know I’ve done my own 21-Day Sugar Detox a couple of times; and that’s really it. I don’t do it all the time. But when I do something like I am right now with low-carb, and I have learned something from how I feel going for 3 weeks, for example, in a sugar detox without some kind of a treat. I know that for me, I can pretty much hold my resolve for a couple of weeks. A week, at least, and really avoid certain things. But, for me, having a day or a couple of meals where I’m just not thinking about it. I’m eating real food, but maybe it’s more carbs, maybe it’s some sugar, whatever it’s going to be. That little break for me makes it something that’s more sustainable.

I think we all need to find what makes it sustainable without making us crazy. And I think the challenge is a great period of time during which to learn something. And some people learn that challenges are not for them. Some people learn, “I’m a hardcore Moderator. This challenge is making me crazy! And it doesn’t work for me.” And some people learn that it helps them quiet the noise, because they’ve got their list of foods, and for the next few weeks, “This is what I do.” You know. And for me, that does make me calmer about nutrition, most of the time. Having my, “Ok, here’s what I’m doing right now.” But what also keeps me calm in the longer term is knowing that what works for me is having a little break from it somewhere, and then kind of continuing on my path.

And like you had said before; having the break from it doesn’t mean that it’s another week or two weeks or three weeks where I just kind of spiral out of control. That’s not what happens. It’s not planned and calculated, but it’s planned and thoughtful, because I know myself. And I know that if I get that little break, then it keeps me in long term instead of making it like a diet that then I have to cheat on. Which is something that Robb talked about a bunch in Wired to Eat. So those of you who are struggling with that, definitely eat Wired to Eat. I don’t know if you have more thoughts on that specifically. There are a couple of other little things I want to mention here.

Liz Wolfe: Quickly, something that popped into my head as you were speaking. And also, looping in the conversation earlier about how I’m an Obliger and how I discovered that. I think we both agree that when we’re talking to people, what we want them to understand is that if something doesn’t work for you, don’t assume that there’s something wrong with you and you need to nutrition challenge harder, or repeatedly, or whatever. It’s that the approach you’re trying to utilize to get where you want to go might not be appropriate for the machinery you possess. AKA; I’m an Obliger, so I need to find a different way to get things done based on who I am, not try to be this hyper-organized individual, driven self-starting individual, and consistently fail at that and feel like there’s something wrong with me.

But, at the same time, I would also say that when you’re trying something new, and you’re trying to get from point A to point B, there will be frustrations and failures, and you can expect that. Just because you don’t get it right the first time doesn’t mean you’re not going to get it right eventually. And you have to give yourself that time and space to figure this out. Maybe fail a few times, or go down the wrong path a few times. It’s just a process. I would never tell my 2-year-old that she should be able to get everything right the first time. When you’re doing something for the first time; it doesn’t matter how old you are, you need to give yourself some chances.

Diane Sanfilippo: I think that’s a great point. And also to this point, this is kind of the longtime discussion; why people always say, “This is why diets don’t work.” And it’s like; well, it depends on what the goal is. Because most of the time when we talk about something being a diet, it’s in the short term, right? It’s like a dietary intervention, we could say. Where it’s for a short period of time, here’s the list of rules that some arbitrary person. Perhaps me, in this case, with a 21-Day Sugar Detox. Is saying, “follow these rules.”

Now, these programs exist because they have proven themselves to work with many people, over many years’ time. But what I really want people to know about why they work, is that it teaches the people who go through it something about themselves, and how to fuel themselves, and how to move through the world of food, and confusing food choices. What I don’t want it to teach is that when you’re struggling with sugar, you do a 21-Day Sugar Detox. Do you know what I mean? That’s not what I’m trying to teach anyone. I’m not trying to teach you that this is the answer to everyone’ sugar cravings. What I am trying to do is say, “I’m going to give you an outline of something I know has helped tens, if not hundreds of thousands of people, or more, get through this.” But what the “get through this” means is not you come out of 21 days and you never want sugar again. Because that’s so unrealistic to assume that that’s how they will feel. And if that’s the only measure of success you have, well then you do set yourself up for failure.

What the success point should really be is; hmm. There’s that should word again. {laughs}

Liz Wolfe: {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: But what I hope the success point is for the program is that you learn something about yourself; you learn what to eat instead of sugar. For me that’s the biggest thing I want people to know. If I’m not eating sugar and carbs all the time; and I don’t mean that’s zero-carb. But sugary stuff; junky stuff, all the time, what do I eat instead? And we know that most people out there are sort of scared of fat. And they don’t know how much protein to eat. And what we do is we take you for 3 weeks to say, “Ok, here’s what to do instead.” And when you come out of that period of time, you’ve learned something. And if you haven’t learned something, then I’ve definitely failed you with the program and my team and all of that. But that’s really what we’re trying to do.

And that’s what I would hope that most people are getting from a nutrition challenge. There might be some amazing results within those few weeks, right? And that’s great. And that’s encouraging, and that’s what’s going to kind of keep you on track. We really hope that you have that; but I think in the greater sense, anybody who has some kind of detox or cleanse program, whatever. I think the bigger thing is that you learn something to move forward and be able to make more informed decisions for yourself.

I don’t want you coming back; and we talked about this on a previous episode, about repeating challenging. I don’t want you coming back to the 21-Day Sugar Detox every time you feel like you’re failing, as if I know more about what works for you than you do. Because I don’t. I just know what works for a lot of people in general; but I don’t know what works for you specifically, Sarah, or Jane, or whoever you are. This is not, “Diane has all the answers.” This is, “Diane has a program that might help me? What can I learn from it? What can I learn about myself and how to move through when I have this challenge that I’m trying to face for myself?”

If you get to a point; even Liz. If you got to a point with taking care of the kid, and you kind of stopped and looked back at your week and you were like, “you know what? I pretty much just ate carbs all week. And as a result, I don’t feel that great, but I’m aware.” You don’t then say, “I better do a 21-Day Sugar Detox.”

Liz Wolfe: {laughing}

Diane Sanfilippo: You’re like, “No, I just know.” Liz is like; “Oh hell no!”

Liz Wolfe: {laughing}

Diane Sanfilippo: Oh hell no! {laughs} She could not contain the laughter.

Liz Wolfe: No, this is great. This is a really great line.

Diane Sanfilippo: But you know what I mean?

Liz Wolfe: Yeah.

Diane Sanfilippo: You don’t then say, “Well I better do that, because that’s the right thing to do.” It’s just a tool. It’s just a tool and a way to kind of assess things. So anyway. That’s really the point of the program. It’s not the end-all, be-all of how to eat healthfully and fix yourself. It’s none of that. Ugh. {laughs}

Liz Wolfe: {laughs} So where were we?

6. Balance and grace [36:56]

Diane Sanfilippo: So where were we? I think the subject of balance. Do you want to touch on that a little bit?

Liz Wolfe: Well, I think that kind of goes back. People are wondering, I think, how can they achieve balance and give themselves grace without having to do; like if they’re not constantly on this wagon. If this isn’t their 100% focus all the time, can you really just find some rest {laughs}. Can you just give yourself a break; how can you find that balance making permanent changes versus yo-yoing from challenge to challenge. I don’t know. I’m a little unclear on the direction of all of the questions that we got on Instagram, but I think it all did kind of come down to, “How can I find some equilibrium?”

Diane Sanfilippo: Well I think a lot of people go from a challenge; and you and I don’t, this isn’t something that we, at this point, stumble into. And I think this is partially some of the stuff we teach about in the Master Class, where we talk about these levels of awareness, and this point at which you’ve transcended this information. To the point where, as I noted last time, a Twinkie is no longer food.

Some people were saying they fluctuate so hardcore between being strict paleo, or being on a detox; to SAD eating. Standard American Diet. Literally going back to what they ate before. And how do we help people bridge that gap from, “I’m either on this challenge eating super squeaky clean, or I’m just eating what I was eating before, and I didn’t really take anything from it.” Or, the people around me are eating pizza and wings and beer and Ho-Ho’s and sandwiches and whatever it is. I just described college, just in case anyone is wondering.

Liz Wolfe: {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs} My college experience. I don’t think you or I have ever been in that situation, where we’ve gone from learning about this way of eating, and then maybe trying a challenge, and then going back to full bore just face planting into, I don’t even know. Wonder bread and…

Liz Wolfe: Oh, I have.

Diane Sanfilippo: So then, what is it that helps you make that permanent change.

Liz Wolfe: Oh, man. I’m trying to think back in my life, all of the back and forth. Years ago. I think this was in college when I worked in DC as an intern for a while. I remember on one hand, for at least a little bit of that time, I was making charts, tracking absolutely everything I ate down to the calorie. If I had a, you know, quarter cup of calorie-free dressing, I would mark down 3 calories just in case, and track that. You know those calorie-free dressings? I don’t even know what those are made of anymore. And I was eating 6 times a day. And I was going to the gym before and after work. And then…

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs} That’s crazy pants.

Liz Wolfe: I know, it was total crazy pants. And then at some point when I was in DC I started ordering carry out every night, because you can get anything delivered there. And I was eating pasta, Chinese food; completely went off the deep-end. Which is really weird; I don’t know why I did it. I think my roommate moved out or something, and then I didn’t have anybody that I was performing for. {laughs} I have no idea what it was.

But there was that. And then at some point after college, living at home, I think I was going to spin class I think twice a day. And trying to eat really healthy. And then I think there was a time when I was ordering a pizza and nachos every night. There were just a lot of wild swings. So there have been many times in my life when I’ve really thought I had a line on the health stuff, and what to do. And then I would do the wild back swing in the other direction.

What’s maybe unique to people in this situation is they feel like they’ve really found “the thing.” The thing that’s intuitive, the thing that makes sense, the thing that works from a health perspective and the weight loss, body composition perspective. So maybe it feels a little different, but I don’t know that it is, just from a mental point of view. I don’t know; maybe it is once it really kind of sinks in.

Diane Sanfilippo: I think maybe you weren’t like, “I know this is the right thing to do.”

Liz Wolfe: Yeah.

Diane Sanfilippo: It was just the thing you were doing.

Liz Wolfe: Yeah, maybe so. And maybe it was also just the time. Maybe it was the fact that I went back and forth so many times, and then finally, slowly lost interest in going back and forth so many times. I mean, I got used to the food.

Diane Sanfilippo: Don’t you think what you learned about what we’re doing now is so different from just counting.

Liz Wolfe: Yeah.

Diane Sanfilippo: So even if someone who listens to this show is counting something, they are still pretty much doing that in the context of, we’re trying to eat real, healthy, whole food.

Liz Wolfe: Yeah.

Diane Sanfilippo: We’re not eating 100-calorie packs and calorie-free dressing, and all of that. And if you’re eating calorie-free dressing, we need to introduce you to our archives, and you need to go back and listen to a lot of episodes. {laughs}

Liz Wolfe: {laughs}

7. Finding your why [42:08]

Diane Sanfilippo: But I think part of it is that if you haven’t fully embraced why you're doing this; why does it matter to eat real, whole foods for a period of time. What are you supposed to be getting from it? I think we assume that once you learned it, you can’t possibly go back to eating refined foods. But the truth is; this is kind of an extreme comparison. But you don’t expect an addict to come out of recovery and reintroduce themselves to the same environment they were just in, and not have a problem. And that happens to us, too.

If you do struggle with eating healthy food and making healthy choices for yourself, and then you can kind of set up boundaries and be on the plan, and do it for a period of time. Well if the plan is the thing you were doing, and following, and that was your “why.” If the reason was just because of the plan, then the long-term approach is going to fail. Because eventually the plan ends.

Liz Wolfe: Yeah.

Diane Sanfilippo: So I think the reason has to be a lot bigger than that. Especially if you’re a Questioner. You need to know more about the whys. Why is this a good way to eat? Why is bacon not going to give me a heart attack? Why are egg yolks healthy? Consistently learning and educating yourself, and I do think that part of it also comes from getting rid of a lot of too rigid of expectations of yourself. I think whenever we post foods that people somehow didn’t expect of assume we would eat, it’s like this huge blanket of permission. Like, all of a sudden I post that I ate like a bag of peanut M&Ms at the airport. And someone either loses their mind, or feels like they’ve been given permission.

Liz Wolfe: {laughs} Unfollow. Or, binge on peanut M&Ms.

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah; “She’s crazy!” or whatever people want to say. I really do not care. But, I think if it becomes where it’s someone else’s rules and whatever else, and it’s not about, “What can I learn and how can I move forward from this, and what kind of choices do I wanted make?” You know?

Liz Wolfe: So the central thesis is; there is no one reason, and there is no one way.

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah.

Liz Wolfe: And people need to get comfortable with the fact that this isn’t like a direct shot from, you know, New York to Poughkeepsie. I don’t know.

Diane Sanfilippo: It’s not like eating paleo is the right way to eat, so anything else is wrong. And if you’re not eating paleo then you’re off track, or doing it wrong.

Liz Wolfe: Then you are wrong. Yeah. 100%.

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah. And you don’t need to come back to strict paleo to “make it right.” That’s not; I think that’s where people are feeling that that’s what they need to do, or something.

Liz Wolfe: Ok here’s an interesting idea. I feel like when things really became, I wouldn’t say easy, but when it just became automatic for me. Like, if we’re going to eat tonight, and we have no idea what we want to eat, we’re not going to get nachos. Or Thai food. Or whatever it is. You know that moment where it’s like; “Shoot, I don’t know what there is to eat. I guess I’m going to dump some kale in here with something else random and make a meal.”

Diane Sanfilippo: Make it realistic, Liz; we all know you don’t eat kale.

Liz Wolfe: I know. I sometimes eat kale. I’m trying to think. I’m just going to pop this spaghetti squash in the microwave and make some meat sauce and put it on top.” No big deal. I’m not wishing I had something else. I think it really, really got solid and became effortless when we moved to the homestead. In part, I think that’s maybe touching on what you said about a big change. Like, I wasn’t in my environment that I had been for years before. You know, the military had moved us. Things were changing. This was maybe 4 years ago, maybe? I can’t remember.

Diane Sanfilippo: Availability of the food is definitely a big difference.

Liz Wolfe: Yes.

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah.

Liz Wolfe: I wasn’t going to go down the road; I wasn’t going to drive an hour, whatever.

Diane Sanfilippo: It’s really easy for us to eat the other stuff, in most cases.

Liz Wolfe: Yes it is.

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah.

Liz Wolfe: And it was very much so for me in New Jersey. So at a certain point, I was halfway there, right? When we were in New Jersey, KFC and McDonald’s were not food anymore. That Twinkie was not food. So I would get better take out. Better quality stuff. Like maybe it was this amazing Greek restaurant down the street. Or maybe it was gluten-free pizza. Whatever, I would still do that. But I come here; there is no Greek food or Gluten-free pizza. There’s KFC or McDonald’s. And that’s not food. And I don’t have access to the other stuff. I’m not going to drive an hour. So it just kind of started to matriculate. It started to go that way.

But, I also got a fricking hobby. We bought a farm. I had other stuff to think about. And I think this whole society; our entire world is set up so that we have no free time, but we have all of the time just to worry about what we look like, what we’re eating, oh gosh, agonize over this and that. Somehow we find time to do it. Somehow I find time to watch Real Housewives 10 times a week. Somehow, we find time to obsess over this. So buy a farm.

8. Social support [47:37]

Diane Sanfilippo: And somehow, our friends or whoever is not supportive of this. And I’m just going to let you know that you were getting excited and banging on desk over there.

Liz Wolfe: Sorry. {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: Which I did in my interview with Dr. Wahls. And I’d be like, “Sorry honey! I got really excited.”

Liz Wolfe: I’m figuring stuff out about myself! {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: But I think part of this is when we’re around people who make us feel like thought and attention and care to what we eat aside from what’s super easy to access is a problem. So my friends; all of my new friends; we eat the same way. And that’s not because I will only be friends with people who eat the same way, it’s because it connects us so much over our values and how we spend time, how we think, what we do. So, I go down to this thing in LA, and I’m with my friend Beth, and she’s like, “What do you want to eat?” And I’m like, “I’ll eat whatever your cooking.” Because I know that means bacon and eggs and greens.

Liz Wolfe: {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: If your situation is, “What are we going to eat?” And your friends want to go get pizza, and now it’s like, “Well now I’m the weird one.” Or “Everyone has to pay attention to me.” Or “I have to make a stink about not eating that.” That’s all a real set of challenges, and this is where it really has to very little to do with the food, and has so much more to do about everything else. The way we set up our whole lives. The way we assert ourselves, and all of that stuff.

So I think part of it is about coming to a place with our own choices around food, where our priorities shift, or I should say our priority shifts. The word priority should really just be singular. Anyway. Apparently in other languages there is no plural.

Liz Wolfe: You don’t have multiple priorities?

Diane Sanfilippo: Because that negates the word.

Liz Wolfe: Pluralizing priority?! Negates the word?

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah. Forget what language…

Liz Wolfe: We don’t have time for a grammar podcast.

Diane Sanfilippo: But if you have a priority, that’s your priority. I suppose you could have an order of priority. But anywho. Not my point.

Liz Wolfe: {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: My point is, if that’s something that is an issue socially; which you had kind of touched on; then that layers on something else entirely. So it’s like, once you figure out what your priority is for yourself with your nutrition, and how you want to approach things, you do need to take into consideration that this will affect your relationships, and you need to find a way to buffer that, or make it easier; remove the issue as often as possible if you’re struggling with that specific thing. Because I do think a lot of people struggle with that. Where it’s like, their spouse isn’t supportive. Or they want to go out with their friends, but their friends are just going out for pizza all the time, and that’s not something they want to do. It becomes more than just about the food, you know. But we thought it was just, “What are you eating?”

But what are you eating? I mean for everyone who has a spouse that doesn’t eat the way they do, and it’s a point of contention, my heart goes out to you, because I cannot imagine how hard that is. Because it’s like, what we do, and what we talk about a huge percentage of the time in the household, right? Like everything we do is what are we going to eat? {laughs} What are we buying, where are we going, everything revolves around it. So I could see that that would really push a lot of people.

And I think a lot of people who are asking this question, honestly, need to just allow themselves a little more time, and a little more grace. Time to learn, and time to figure things out for yourself for longer. Because if it’s new to you, and you did a challenge once, and you fell back into your old ways of eating; we’ve been doing this for years. It doesn’t happen overnight, you know? I don’t magically have perfect sleep just because I know the right way to get perfect sleep. There are a lot of other factors. We don’t do everything in our lives perfectly. So just because food is the thing we talk about most, we’re probably pretty good at that. But other things, maybe not. So we just need to kind of go through that process.

9. Habit hacking [51:58]

Liz Wolfe: So, Kristine Rudolph sent me a book recommendation that has nothing to do with what we’re talking about here, but I think some of the central lessons could be relevant. Humans carve out neural pathways based on what they do for not even an extended period of time; a very short period of time. I’m going to have to look up what this book was. I can’t remember. But basically, the book talked about how you have to accept that you’ve carved out these particular roads in your brain. These tendencies. You have taught your body and your mind to function in a certain way. And you can’t uproot those roads. Those roads are going to be there. But what you can do is you can work conscientiously over time to carve out new ones that kind of go around those established patterns.

So you can’t expect to do something different by driving down the same roads. What you need to do is figure out a way to build a new road around it to go from point A to point B. I don’t think the title of the book is relevant. It was basically about a spine surgeon that helps people with chronic pain by helping them to carve out new neural pathways around that pain. And part of it has to do with creative journaling in the evenings, where you basically. This is all a conversation I had with Kristine Rudolph. Where you dump out everything you can even think of; that you’re afraid of, that you’re dealing with on this piece of paper, and then you shred it. You don’t even look at it. You don’t reread it, because that would be reinforcing the same pathways. But instead you get rid of all of that, and you throw it away. And in that act of dumping out, throwing away all of those tendencies and those patterns and those fears, you’re actually carving out new roads that are enabling you to go around those tendencies and those pathways. So that might be an interesting take for some of our listeners.

Diane Sanfilippo: I love that. That is exactly one of the analogies I drew about adrenal fatigue and the way that we think and the way that our brain handles stress. The idea that the path of least resistance for our mind, and how we respond to stressors. Which also relates to how we think and make decisions every day, and part of it is about habits and physical things we do, and part of it is just our thoughts. So, that example, if you’re sitting in traffic and you’re typically on your way to work and so that traffic is stressing you out because you’re going to be late for work or miss a meeting. Or, you take that same route and there’s traffic but it’s Saturday, and you don’t need to be anywhere. Ikea will wait; you can get there whenever you get there. In fact, why are you going there on a Saturday? {laughs}

Anyway, your brain is so used to this response that you will always have that you then have that same response. Then you realize it makes no sense. Because you don’t need to be anywhere at any certain time. So, whether it’s a practice of rethinking, or it’s like; “if I’m going to go to Ikea, I could take this route, that’s also my route to work. Or I take a different route.” Physically drive a different way. And I think that’s kind of what we’re talking about with nutrition choices, and habits, and buying the right food, and having it in your fridge that you know you want to eat so that you make that exact path or route from hungry to not hungry anymore. You make that path easier and different than it was before, using all of those sorts of strategies. So I think that’s a really good point.

Liz Wolfe: The book is called Back in Control. This came out of a conversation I had with Kristine, who is like the big sister I never had. She’s amazing. She always has something interesting to say. And I was talking with her a little bit about how past traumas impact how you function in the world now. So I was kind of thinking about different things that had happened in my life over time. What might be surfacing now as a mom, things like that. So of course she has this amazing, brilliant insight about neural pathways. And she thought that book would actually maybe apply to me in that situation. And just like you just said, I think it definitely applies here.

Diane Sanfilippo: And I think one other thing I’ll say on that is; that’s part of. We’ve been talking; we’re just hoopty Gretchen Ruben fans over here with all her frameworks and all of that. But part of the book, Better Than Before, is talking about habits and tendencies and how we can restructure a lot of our habits. Once we know our tendency, and once we know how we’re doing things now, it’s like habit-hacking, almost. How do I set up a trigger for myself? We get to point where, when we brush our teeth we always also floss. Different things that we do just out of habit; how do we create those for ourselves.

And simply doing something different for a period of time, that can really help. But the point should be to learn something from it and move on a little bit differently. I literally need to train myself to not say the world “should” the way I’ve trained myself to not say “like” every other word when I was a teenager.

Liz Wolfe: {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: But, hopefully that’s what we get from it, is that we can create some new habits rather than robotically following some rules for a while, and then going back and forth and back and forth.

Liz Wolfe: Mm-hmm. Amen.

Diane Sanfilippo: Good conversation. I liked it. I liked it a lot. “I like it a lot.”

Liz Wolfe: “I like it a lot.”

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs}

Liz Wolfe: Alright folks. That will do it for this week. You can find me, Liz, at http://realfoodliz.com/ and you can find Diane at http://dianesanfilippo.com. Join our email lists for free goodies and updates that you don’t find anywhere else on our website or on the podcast. While you’re on the internet, please leave us an iTunes review. We’ll see you next week.

Comments 4

  1. If you do a Google Ngram Viewer of the work Priorities you’ll find out that the word wasn’t frequently used until after 1950. Yep I’m bored today.

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      Author
  2. Hey, guys! I have been trying to figure out how to leave you a review for like 10 minutes. No idea why I was born into a technological age because I just don’t get it. Anyway, this episode was literally EXACTLY what I needed to hear. I was just telling my mom after like my 5th challenge that I started and quit by the 3rd day, my problem isn’t that I keep quitting, it’s that I keep starting. I really like what y’all said, I wrote this down- the point of a reset is to learn something about yourself and not just to come running back every time you feel out of control. THANK YOU! We eat a real foods diet and if I eat a bar of 85% chocolate, my morality is not in question. I have 2 kids 2 and under so I need to allow myself some grace and forget about losing weight while I’m nursing-I hear your voice Liz when I start to get upset- focus on what’s important, the nursing relationship. I’ve been pregnant or nursing or both since July of 2014 though so it’s hard not to have control of my body for that long. Now I’ve gone on a tangent.
    My point:
    Y’all are awesome! I always hear good stuff from your show! And my primally pure deodorant kicks ass- thanks for that recommendation- been looking for natural option that actually works!
    Okay, I could go on and on. Last one, I also have both of your books which are awesome too. Basically, y’all are killin’ it.

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      Author

      Thanks for the comment, Ina! The Podcast reviews are easiest when left via your phone or computer and it’s done via the Podcast app or iTunes program!

      So glad you’re loving the show!

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