Remember – If you're enjoying these podcasts, please leave us a review in iTunes. Thanks!
1. Can I eat too much protein? [8:42]
2. Should I save and cook with my bacon fat? [14:49]
3. Why do oils in the grocery store say “safe for high heat” if they’re not? [18:41]
4. What about protein powder? [24:01]
5. How do I convince my parents/friends/spouse to eat Paleo? [29:22]
6. I don’t have a gallbladder, do I need to do something differently? [35:59]
7. Why no eggs, nuts, or nightshades for an Autoimmune protocol? [40:38]
8. Why do we need to be sleeping in a pitch-black room? [45:19]
9. Can we use agave to sweeten desserts? [49:26]
10. Why do you recommend FCLO and not regular CLO or fish oil? [53:19]
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LIZ WOLFE: Hey everyone, I'm Liz Wolfe. I'm a nutritional therapy practitioner, and I'm here with Diane Sanfilippo, who is a certified holistic nutrition consultant and the woman behind Balanced Bites and the new book, Practical Paleo. Remember our disclaimer: the materials and content contained in this podcast are intended as general information only, and not to be considered a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.
Well, I'm reading this beginning part-sorry, Diane, I can never get through this without like breaking character, but it says Welcome to episode-pound sign of the Balanced Bites podcast. What episode are we on?
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Fifty-four.
LIZ WOLFE: Dang. Hey. So welcome to episode 54 of the Balanced Bites podcast. What's up with you?
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Me? Last night was our first official one hour sort of Paleo class, as they're calling it at my gym, so we kicked off a Paleo challenge there this week, and I'm just really excited. It's been really fun to kind of get in there and answer everyone's questions because I think there's tons and tons of new members at my gym, and a lot of them have no idea that I like even know anything or that whole little Paleo world or like any of that, so it's been really fun to kind of sit down with them and really take them through what to do on the challenge. And the first week was-we talked about performance nutrition, so I kind of noticed that people were posting their pictures of their meals already, and almost nobody had much in the way of dense carbohydrates, and I was like…
LIZ WOLFE: Mmm.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: I think that's really common. Have you seen that when people get into a challenge where they kind of just go Paleo and they ditch all the grains and beans and whatnot, and they forget that they might need some other source of carbs? I think it's just…
LIZ WOLFE: Yes. Every single person that does CrossFit, whether a hard hitting CrossFitter or not like needs to make sure that they are not eschewing carbohydrates for dogmatic reasons.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: And because they're only ever given one option, a sweet potato…
LIZ WOLFE: Mmm.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: You know, have some sweet potatoes here and there, and they don't realize that that means unless you're given another option for the carbs, it means sweet potatoes almost every day. So we went through a whole bunch of other carbs with them and talked about, yeah, just some other options. Got them to shout out some other stuff that they're eating and mentioned to them that if you searched for Paleo sweet potato recipes on Google, you'd get over 250 thousand results, so I was like I don't want to hear that this is going to be boring because there's plenty of ways to make them, free recipes all over the place. So we are three days into the challenge, so people have some experience, you know, seeing how they're feeling.
And the other big thing was that I think a lot of people do the meat and veggies thing, and we talk a lot about this in the workshops where, you know, you always joke about chicken, broccoli, and coconut oil. And I actually think it's funny because that's kind of the approach that I used to take, was chicken, broccoli, and spray olive oil, even like before Paleo. This is way before that when I first learned about fat, but looking at some of the lunches, they were just really shy on fat. So between not getting enough carbohydrates, a good amount of fat, especially if they're lowering their overall carb intake, so they go from like 300 grams of carbs a day to like a hundred, and they really need to get some more fat in there, so it was cool. Answered a bunch of questions and got them rolling for the next week. And I think what's kind of cool to recognize is that we have almost no limit to the arenas in which we could be teaching, and you know, just because you and I go on the road doesn't mean I'm not thrilled to be teaching at my own gym. I actually think it's really fun to be able to get in and see what people are doing, and see what a lot of the questions are in the gym, and hearing what people are struggling with. So next week I'm talking about dining out and kind of how to navigate a menu and all of that. I told them I basically live a Paleo challenge. It's like, right? And especially when we're on the road, it's like, just talking about really how to-how we live every day and make choices.
LIZ WOLFE: How many sardines we eat.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: I don't know if I'll hit them with that next week, but we'll see. What are you up to?
LIZ WOLFE: Oh, you know, just hanging. I'm just sitting here next to my husband doing some school work. He's working on his second Master's degree, and I just figured out like literally just figured out how to use group text on my iPhone, so that's like the state of achievement at my house right now. I did want to say thank you to Jenny of the website Easy Paleo. EasyPaleo.com. She did a little interview, a q&a with me, which she posted last night, and it was really fun. And I may or may not have given her a little exclusive tidbit about an upcoming project that hasn't really been announced anywhere else. I mean, I announced it to the last two workshops in Florida, which were amazing, and I have to say, it was so nice to meet, I think it was Lance and Candy, really cool people. People brought us amazing chocolate. Cave Mama was there, and we were in Naples and St. Petersburg.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yup.
LIZ WOLFE: Yeah. And that was just awesome. The folks from CrossFit Redline were amazing. CrossFit St. Pete's were amazing as well. It was just a really, really good weekend.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah, I wanted to say thank you to the DiSarros for hosting us and cooking us an amazing dinner, just being overall awesome, really warm people. I love them. They're some of my favorites. And Megan from CrossFit St. Pete's…
LIZ WOLFE: Mm-hmm.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: A super stellar organizer. Amazing showing us the gym, and she's just super excited about all of this stuff, and it was totally obvious that just really loved getting to spend some time with her too for lunch and everything, so.
LIZ WOLFE: And how cool were Riley, Emma, and Justice?
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yes! [laughs]
LIZ WOLFE: I made some really good friends. If I ever have kids, I'm actually just going to go borrow Riley, Emma, and Justice, and take them home with me.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Awesome kids.
LIZ WOLFE: Yeah, super cool. All right then. So that's what's up, and we have some upcoming workshops this weekend in Berkeley Heights, New Jersey. The following weekend in Easton, Massachusetts, and then we're in Atlanta, right?
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah, I'm psyched. We get to Atlanta, let's see, October 6th. So we'll be in Atlanta October 6th, and we're in Rochester, New York October 20th and that's it for a little while on the workshops. Not something else til mid-November, but I've got a bunch of book signings in southern California at the end of October, and then stay tuned because I have some events that are coming up in Texas at the end of October, early November, and more to be determined.
LIZ WOLFE: Wicked.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Woo hoo!
LIZ WOLFE: Okay, cool. So what we're going to do today is basically we're going to look at tackling the top ten questions we get at the Balanced Bites workshops. Do you have anything to say about this topic for the week, Diane?
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Well, they're in no particular order, first of all, but it's not too…it's not to kind of call anyone out and be like “oh, we get this all the time,” but I really feel like not everyone can get to the workshops, you know. Especially this fall, we're just here on the East Coast until…
LIZ WOLFE: Mm-hmm.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: So you know, it's obviously excluding a bunch of people across the country, and I think, you know, we teach…I kind of joked about this at our last event. I was like, we know you're going to ask certain questions, and this is not all of them by any stretch, but these are ten questions we pretty much know we're going to get every single time to some degree or another. And that's not even just at the workshops. Like I get these questions when I do a book signing, I get them just from, you know, anyone. And they're all over the place. Some of them are through the website, blog, etc, so yeah, just wanted to hash them out, so that people could see what other people are wondering, and what our general take on it is. Just some pretty quick questions and answers.
LIZ WOLFE: So first question is “Can I eat too much protein?” Your thoughts.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: My thoughts? So usually people ask about this because they're concerned about kidney function. Generally, that's kind of the perspective or the take, and the real answer here is that unless you already have compromised kidney function, unless you have kidney damage, you really can't eat “too much protein.” Part of that is going to be appetite signaling, satiety, you know, just quite literally, it's nearly impossible to overeat protein. We just…we just won't do it, and if you are also talking about just a total absolute number of grams, again, unless you have an issue already, your body and your kidneys will adapt to be able to handle and process and metabolize protein to whatever level you're eating it. So if somebody is concerned, if they do have kidney damage or if they have kidney disease, this is something where I let them know, they may be interested in something that's a little more ketogenic, meaning much, much more based on fat, moderate carbohydrates, so even like 50 or fewer grams of carbohydrates, and then moderate protein. So pretty low protein compared to what other people are doing. Maybe even portions that are half or less of whatever other people would eat, and really focusing on getting much more fat in the diet.
LIZ WOLFE: Good job. [laughs]
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Do you have more thoughts?
LIZ WOLFE: Oh gosh, it's funny because I feel like a lot of the athletes I work with feel like they cannot get enough protein in, especially the ones that are trying to avoid protein shakes and stuff like that. So I almost always go that route where really if you're eating a lot of more fatty protein, you actually tend to be able to eat more.. It's the lean protein that you…
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yes.
LIZ WOLFE: that you end up having trouble, just stuffing in. I mean, maybe that's just the body's innate wisdom telling you that chicken breast kind of sucks. [laughs] We should all just be eating chicken thighs. And you know, we had a question actually, and I don't know if we tackle this later about the whole acidity/alkalinity thing, which was a really interesting question, and we usually get it from folks that are also studying like holistic nutrition. It's a pretty common question and I was just kind of flipping through a book that I have, kind of an Eastern approach to nutrition. Does that sound right?
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Sure.
LIZ WOLFE: Yeah, so, I think it was called Healing with Whole Foods or something. It talks all about, you know, the issues “issues” of animal protein being acidic and yadda yadda yadda, which you and I, Diane, don't really buy into. This book that I was looking at was talking about how dangerous animal protein could be virtue of its acidity or its acidifying effect, and then it launched into probably a hundred page chapter on how to replace all the things you're going to missing from animal protein when you stop eating. So to me, it's kind of like, this whole like animal protein thing has been set up as kind of like a straw man for other things. I don't know how you feel about that, but having to devote an entire portion of a pretty large book to supplementing your way out of deficiencies caused by not eating enough animal protein is just kind of like raises red flags for me, so…
DIANE SANFILIPPO: I think people are asking the question, like rightfully so. Like we learned about it through my nutrition program as well, and I know it's kind of a common topic amongst a lot of courses that are out there, but, and I think this is something that Robb Wolf has talked about a bunch, too, but just my perspective on it is, I'm curious what symptom presentation people are experiencing or seeing in their clients that would say to them, and this came up actually on Twitter, too, like a few days after the weekend that somebody said, you know, isn't this food too acidifying, and I was like, well, what are you seeing as a symptom that's presenting or, you know, series of symptoms that tells you that this person is too acidic. Like I want to know how that is presenting because my bet is that it's related to something totally different than just too much animal protein vs. plants. Like I don't think I've ever seen somebody who comes to me and I'm like, you're just eating way too much animal protein. I can tell because x, y, z. Do you know what I mean? Like…
LIZ WOLFE: Mm-hmm.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: generally see that, and it's not to say, there's not maybe something to the energetic value of going for animal foods vs. plant foods or, you know, maybe some other more holistic kind of emotional, physical ties. You know, that kind of thing. But I just, yeah, I just haven't seen somebody where I'm like, you know what? I think this is just an issue of you're getting too much animal protein vs. plants. And I don't know what that would look like because I haven't seen it and I haven't seen anything that really studies that. At least not from a perspective that's not got an agenda, you know what I mean? Like you were saying where they're like, well, you'll be too acidic. Well, what would that look like? You know…
LIZ WOLFE: [laughs] Well, you smell like apple cider vinegar? What?
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Just as a clinician, I'm like, so if your saliva or your urine measures, you know, you can get those little pH papers…if that measures a certain way, you know, what does that mean about the rest of your body, and like I just…I can pretty much guess that it's maybe more of an issue of eating refined foods vs. animal foods. Like that would really be my guess is that the person who's more “acidic” and has some kind of issues, you know, where they're fatigued or who knows what? I think it would…I don't know. I just can't see it really happening from whole, nutrient dense foods.
LIZ WOLFE: All right. [laughs] All right, next question. “Should I save and cook with my bacon fat?” What do you think?
DIANE SANFILIPPO: So just from a culinary perspective, I tell people, you know, from food quality and culinary perspective, I tell people that the fat that they're having, if they buy pastured, you know, really high quality, local farmer kind of deal, or like a US Wellness Meats type of bacon, save that fat. Because you're spending a ton of money on that bacon, and that's high quality fat. Now, when I say save it and cook with it, I mean, save it, maybe you strain it out of any kind of bits that are in there are cleaned out. It should be pretty light to white in color. It should not be a dark color by the time it solidifies. And then when you use it in a pan or wherever, you use it onetime. You don't use it and then whatever is left there you save again to reuse. You just use it the one time. So that's my take: save the high quality stuff, use it once, discard whatever is left, if you have more left in that batch. And I keep in a glass or ceramic container in the refrigerator to store it between uses. Your thoughts?
LIZ WOLFE: My thoughts are…the only real thought that I have in my head right now, something that many people don't realize, I think, and that I didn't realize for awhile is that bacon fat is not the same as lard nutritionally. So, you know, it's a decent stable fat, as you know, as you said as long as it's from appropriate sources, and not just reused and reused and reused. And it's delicious. But it's not the same with regards to nutrient density as is lard. Lard is really rich in vitamin D. Bacon fat is not, so if you're looking for that nutrient dense, you're not going to find that in the bacon fat by my understanding. That's pretty much all. I think, though, that folks, I would love for people to seek out lard as well as bacon fat as well as ghee, you know, just varied sources of fatty acids. I think it's really important to get a variety, especially the most nutrient dense ones, for example, lard or ghee.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: [xxx]
LIZ WOLFE: What's that?
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Do you know if tallow is nutrient dense?
LIZ WOLFE: I have no idea what's in tallow, to be honest with you.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: I know when Mat LaLonde did his talk at AHS, and people were like shocked and appalled when he said bacon fat is not–no joke, I was sitting there thinking to myself, who thought bacon fat was nutrient dense? It's a fat, but I wasn't sitting here thinking I was getting tons of vitamins and minerals from it. I just knew it was a safe fat to be cooking with, and as you just said, lard is a really nutrient dense fat, and then grass-fed butter or ghee, but other than that, like coconut oil‘s not nutrient dense. It's rich in MCTs and lauric acid, but in terms of like a broad spectrum of vitamins.
LIZ WOLFE: Like vitamins A, D, E, and K which are the fat soluble vitamins.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Not-you know, you're getting them in other foods that you're eating, perhaps with the coconut oil and you need that fat to absorb them. That's fine. But, I mean, and it's not a shot at anyone for saying they assumed there were vitamins or nutrients in the fats, but I just didn't get the impression that people were using bacon fat, thinking, I'm using this because it's very nutrient dense. You know, from my perspective, it's, let's use a fat that's more stable than others for cooking, and move on with our lives. Even with olive oil, like it's got some vitamin E in it, so that's great. Probably a bunch of other like polyphenols, antioxidants, especially when you're using it cold, like on a salad, but for real nutrient density, it's really like the animal foods and some plant foods. But anyway.
LIZ WOLFE: I digress. [laughs] All right, next question. “Why do oils in the grocery store say ‘safe for high heat' if they're not?” And this is kind of that stability/smoke point question that we get.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah, why don't you tackle it first, then I'll add on.
LIZ WOLFE: This really is, from what I've dug around and what I've turned up on this, this question, which I think is pretty much based on smoke point, there's actually a separate issue from stability and resistance to oxidative damage, which is something that we talk about at the workshops. Using fats that are stable, i.e. saturated and resistant to damage. I think that this comes up a lot because folks who are coming from kind of that gluten free camp, who have used a lot of like grapeseed oil, especially you know when I used to cook some of Elana's Pantry stuff. Some of the gluten free treats kind of back in the day. She was using grapeseed oil, I think, because it had a high smoke point. And that always made sense to me, even though I couldn't necessarily reconcile the whole “well, is this Paleo? Is it not?” type thing with the fact that it was actually appeared by virtue of the smoke point to be a relatively stable fat. But it turns out we're actually in a lot of circumstances conflating or confusing the idea of stability with this whole smoke point thing, so in doing some research on this in the most awful book ever written ever, which I think you have it, too. It's called Fatty Acids in Foods and Their Health Implications. It's 1200 pages of just utter misery. I basically gleaned from that book that the smoke point of different fats is more based on the length of the fatty acid chains than the degree of saturation. So while it's not to say that smoke point doesn't matter, to me it's certainly secondary. It means to me that smoke point is less important than the knowledge of how stable or how saturated a fat is. Does that make sense?
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah, absolutely. And I think…I think it becomes obvious when you look at a chart of, you know, the common coking fats or the cooking fats chart that I have in the book. I have an abbreviated one on the website right now. But if you look at the way..the way some of these fats line up in terms of how much saturated vs. unsaturated fat they have, and we can have shorter chains or longer chains of really any of these. But I think what tends to happen is that there tend to be more shorter chains in saturated fats, more much longer chains in the polyunsaturated fats, but again, there are…there can be both types in all different kinds of fats, but I think that's what we tend to see, right? Like butter is a very short chain fat. Coconut oil, medium chain. And when we get to things like canola, corn oil, soybean oil, very, very long chain fats.
LIZ WOLFE: Mm-hmm.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: I think that that's where it kind of comes in, and if you look at, for example, my ranking of common cooking fats, I first rank them by how stable are they, and by stable, I mean, how saturated are they? And then, by smoke point thereafter, and you can see that most of the more saturated fats have lower smoke points. Some of the more refined forms, like I've got two temperatures, one for unrefined, one for refined coconut oil. And the unrefined…perhaps there's more short chain fats, who knows, in the unrefined vs. the refined, but the temperatures are a little bit lower, which is why people get confused. I think one of the other issues with grapeseed, canola oil, etc., is that people are looking for a flavorless oil because we've been trained to…again, this is from the culinary perspective, and I think it's valuable to have both of those perspectives because we can really geeked out on science, but then we forget that people are eating for taste. You know, or they're learning how to cook a certain way and they need to learn how to replace things that they're cooking with. And these aren't really, you know, I don't really think cavemen were cooking in a cast iron skillet, needing to add a fat. Right? That's really not the kind of approach that we have. We like the more traditional approach, and I think people just got away from things like the butter, the tallow, the lard, and the flavors that those would impart. Interestingly enough, people who wanted to make the absolute best pie crust, not that I'm encouraging pie crust making, but if you wanted to make the absolute best pie crust, make it with lard.
LIZ WOLFE: Mm-hmm.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Which I think is amazing, but they would make it with lard. Because it really does have the best cooking quality, so I think it's just getting that shift in, and then having people find ways to source, and you know, really get some of these other fats into their fridge and whatnot, and just kind of changing the paradigm. And 9 times out of 10, if a grocery store passes off something, the opposite's probably true.
LIZ WOLFE: [laughs]Just don't ever read anything on your food. If there's writing on your food, just don't. It's not food.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Seriously, like everything out there is just kind of opposite. [singing] Opposite day!
LIZ WOLFE: Opposite day. Do the opposite. All right. “what about protein powder?” This is kind of your…this is…you're good at this one.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Okay. [sighs] Oh, protein powder. Okay, so there are a couple of issues here when people are asking about protein powder. One is a matter of convenience, right? I think most people are trying to do shakes out of convenience, and of course I challenge them to talk about other ways of getting convenience foods in, like hard boiled eggs or some leftover proteins, that kind of thing. So if it's for convenience, it's really just like another type of convenience food that you make convenient to you, whether it's jerky or that kind of thing. Even in a handful of almonds or something. You know, again, it's not a whole food. You're not getting fat with the protein, which we know you need fats to assimilate protein properly just through, you know, the metabolism of protein, you do need that fat as well. To some degree, obviously, it doesn't mean that you're not absorbing it at all, but just for optimal processing, and that's how protein would be packaged in nature, would be with some fat.
LIZ WOLFE: Mm-hmm.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: At least. You know, if people are doing a whey protein, is it from, you know, a grass-fed whey source or not? You know, if they're doing egg white proteins, you know, my money is on the fact that this stuff is going to be the lowest common denominator in terms of quality. Unless you're finding a source that you know and trust, and you can see, you know, what's the source of that egg white, you know, where is it coming from? My bet's on the fact that it's probably the lowest quality, you know, super industrialized form, made into powder and, you know, that's really it. So lastly, it doesn't even qualify in my book to take this stuff in, so the way I see this is if you are trying to gain or maintain mass, then liquid food is perhaps a good idea. I don't think it's the best idea, but it may be somebody who qualifies, you know, to be taking it in. So this would be somebody who's training more than once a day, training very hard, you know, perhaps a Games level competitor, at least you know, close to it, or somebody who is trying to, as I said, gain or maintain weight, so maybe if you are a very slight person and you're trying to keep some weight on, and this is in the context of are you first of all even eating enough? Like I don't want to see somebody who's eating, you know, two smaller meals a day, and they're trying to fill in with the protein powder. This is really something where it's a big struggle or has a big struggle with budget concerns for somebody, for example, like one of the coaches at my gym who's 240, 6'5″, eats a ton of food, but perhaps, say after a workout, he's also getting in some extra protein via powder. That's somebody who in my book qualified. So I think it's a big issue when people are trying to just circumvent real food, and you know, a protein shake probably tastes really good. Most of these things have tons of antioxidants. I like for people to take the perspective, you know, of look for a single ingredient, just for protein, and build the rest of your shake kind of around real food. Maybe a little splash of coconut milk, maybe some fruit, that kind of thing. And the other thing is the shakes, you're in a state of fight or flight, not rest and digest. So for that person who wants the extra calories, extra fuel in, right at that moment, liquid food is a better choice because you can't actually digest real whole food without blood flow and digestive enzymes and all that stuff working in your digestive system while your blood flows out to your muscles. So…
LIZ WOLFE: Can I just point out how critical that is? And I just feel like..like the focus on whole food post workout is admirable, but it doesn't work all the time.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Not…there's a tight window, right? Like you and I always tell people just like kind of go home and eat or sit and chill out for awhile…
LIZ WOLFE: Meditate. Yeah.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: I think I know why people got confused about it because they hear from like athletes and bodybuilders, for example, you know, a post workout shake is critical. Well, if you're not a bodybuilder or a completive athlete, like 99% of people we see in gyms, ourselves included, right? Like you and I don't go chugging protein shakes. And that's the other thing, especially for the people who are looking to lose body fat, which is, you know, by and large, that's the vast majority who's in the gym, and no discredit to them, whatsoever. It's just kind of the nature of the beast, but if you're trying to lose any kind of body fat, let your body chill out, just go home and eat real food. You don't need to be kind of spiking any blood sugar with liquid food post workout. But there's a reason why it's been recommended, but I think the additional information of who is it really recommended for is what most people are missing. And you know, I get a lot of people who are wondering, you know, why they just can't get rid of this extra body fat, and they're showing me what they're eating, and they're all doing a shake, and I'm like, look, you know, this isn't really the best approach for you right now. So, that's my ten years on what about protein powder.
LIZ WOLFE: Your ten years. All right, okay, next question. “How do I convince my parents, friends, or spouse to eat Paleo?”
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Do you have thoughts on this one?
LIZ WOLFE: I just would say you don't. And it's not because you don't care about people, but you've just gotten to that point where it's almost always counterproductive to try and impose a lifestyle on somebody. I mean, I guess it's different with kids. Like kids are under your control, you want the best for them, and you have that option to frame circumstances such that you make that happen. But when it comes to your friends or your parents, loved ones who are old enough to, you know, be self-determining individuals, it's just more one of those things where you set an example that you think is, you know, that you're living the way you should live. You feel healthy, you take joy in your food, and emanate that joy and health and radiance and all that. And those who are interested and are open to it will be interested and ask you about it, and others will not. You know, it's just one of those things where trying to impose this type of idea, just something that you think is right and you know so deeply, you know, you're 100% sure that this is the way that they should be living. It's just counterproductive to try and push that on somebody else, and now and then, I'll kind of have it out with my dad over Diet Mountain Dew. It's just kind of that one niggling thing that, you know, despite a whole, you know, overhaul of family food and lifestyle and being healthy otherwise, it's just one of those things we've had trouble kind of convincing him to give up and you know what? He's a growed ass man. So he can drink his Mountain Dew if he wants. [sigh] That's just how I feel. It's not that I don't care. It's just that I think that usually more often than not, trying to foist a concept upon somebody who is just not really necessarily interested or asking for help or open to it is just kind of, you know, swim upstream.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: I've been trying to convince Paleo Kitty, but, no, I'm kidding. He's crawling into my lap right now, like totally a snuggle monkey here. I'm with you. You know, I think this becomes apparent the more time you spend sort of eating and living this way. I think that you end up, you know, calming down and becoming a little less overzealous and doing less proselytizing…
LIZ WOLFE: Being evangelistic about it.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah, certainly. I think…I wrote a blog post about this because I think it's important for people not to do that. It's way more effective to let people come and ask you questions. It's more effective to be very positive, as you said, have a good outlook. To be, you know, not kind of be grumpy if you are not eating something. Like it should be your choice and it shouldn't be like, Oh, I can't eat that with you guys. If you have an attitude like that around people, they're not going to want to do it. Like I even…I've seen some people kind of complaining about a beat down at CrossFit, and I'm like, all right, that's not a good outlook for that person to come to the gym. [laughs]
LIZ WOLFE: [laughs]
DIANE SANFILIPPO: It's the same thing. You just have to be positive, but I'm with you. I mean, my parents…I've said it before. My parents aren't Paleo, and they don't have, in my mind, perfect health. I mean, it's just, you know, whatever. Everyone's got their own little struggles. But over time, you have to realize that people will know that you're a source of information and to that end, become a source of information to where somebody asks you, it doesn't mean you turn up 20 studies for them. 9 times out of 10, the person just wants help what it means and how to do it. And not that, you know, my book is the end all, be all, but I've heard countless times from people, when somebody asks them what to do or what's this whole thing about, they just will hand them my book because that's why I wrote it the way I did.
LIZ WOLFE: Mm-hmm.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: It explains it in easy terms, gives a plan, especially if you've got a family member with a health condition who's really just most of the time, they're just scared. They're scared of what the condition means, they're scared of what it means for their future, they're scared of the fact that they think they're going to have eat disgusting diet food, which we know isn't the case. But they presume it's going to be bland and tasteless and you know, this whole other approach, so I just would say, be armed with good information that you think can help a person, but wait for them to ask you questions. And then, when you answer them, you know, make sure you understand what their “problem” is, like you can't explain to somebody that eating grains is going to make them fat. Yeah, you can't say that that's an issue if they're clearly not overweight. Like that's not a way to approach that. So, you know, understanding that there are a lot of different angles and different ways that we can help our health by changing our food, and perhaps, you know, this is something that I've said before. Perhaps do some research on a specific condition. So for example, my uncle has Parkinson's disease, and I've done a lot of research on it, and you know, when he asked me, I was educated on his condition. I'm educated on the way that his medication works, how it's timed, etc. So this is a very close family member or friend, I think this is a really good piece of advice. Get yourself really educated on their condition. You know, you don't have to beat them over the head with it, but then, you know how to talk to them about it because you're speaking their language instead of your language, talking about lectins and antinutrients, they're going to tune out. So…that's really it.
LIZ WOLFE: And everybody should just be blogging because it's a really great, kind of more passive way to get your thoughts out there, and your friends can click over and read it, and still act stubborn to your face, but maybe they'll be devouring your blog behind closed doors, just trying to figure out a way to, you know, to come around to it such that they can pretend that they came up with the idea themselves. You just never know.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Totally.
LIZ WOLFE: So, all right, next question. “I don't have a gallbladder. Do I need to do something differently?” Yes, you need to dance with a two-step backwards in roller blades. [laughs] I don't know. I see a lot of roller bladers these days. Do people still roller blade? I mean, clearly they do, but I was not aware.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: [laughs] Where are you getting that?
LIZ WOLFE: You don't see roller bladers everywhere? I feel like they're everywhere.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Apparently, I live on a very suburban street where if I see people walking on the street, it's a spectacle, so…
LIZ WOLFE: [laughs]
DIANE SANFILIPPO: I think I'd be Instagramming that.
LIZ WOLFE: I'll try and get it for you the next time. It's pretty funny, but if I can keep myself from going all like Adam Sandler and throwing a stick in front of…No, I would never do that. I would never do that.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: So what do you think? Don't have a gallbladder…I know you've got some pointers on this one.
LIZ WOLFE: Yeah, I'd just say…I mean, the gallbladder is not just an unnecessary like thing. I feel like it's just sad because docs are really quick to take that thing out without really kind of necessarily dealing with the underlying root of whatever was causing the problem. We need a gallbladder. The gallbladder deploys bile, which is made in the liver, and bile provides for the digestion and emulsification of fats, kind of the same way soap gets oil off of your skin. So yes, we need what the gallbladder provides. And if you don't have gallbladder, you will still be producing bile, but you may not be producing it in response to the fats that you eat in the proper amounts, and so you shouldn't feel bad about assisting yourself with supplementation. Because fats are really, really necessary for health and no surprise, conventional medicine and the conventional dietary paradigm is not real concerned with that fact. It's really not concerned with the idea that we need fats at all.
So, first of all, if you don't have a gallbladder, don't feel bad about supplementing. I would go for just something with ox bile. Ox bile can kind of play the role of bile with a fatty meal. Take that whenever you eat a meal that has fat in it. Not a big deal, keep it in your purse. Let's see. I think the brand I've used is Biotics. They have one called Beta Plus. You could probably find that on Amazon, but ox bile supplements are relatively easy to find. Coconut oil is unique in that the medium chain triglycerides actually bypass the need for bile emulsification, so coconut oil is great for folks that don't have gallbladders, but like we've talked about, I do like people to get a good variety of fats because they do carry different nutrients, so I would definitely not only rely on coconut oil if you don't have a gallbladder. What do you think?
DIANE SANFILIPPO: I think that's all I would really say about that.
LIZ WOLFE: [Forrest Gump voice] That's all I have to say about that. [laughs]
DIANE SANFILIPPO: I think that some people also without a gallbladder notice more than others.
LIZ WOLFE: Mm-hmm.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Like, some people notice with a fatty meal, they're just not breaking it down and by notice, I mean, either you'll feel something as it's being digested or when you look in the toilet, there will be obvious signs of more fat there than not, so if it's like more slick or lighter in color or green in your eliminations, so that's kind of how you know if you're not digesting it well. And our friend Stacy over at Paleo Parents has written at least one, if not a couple of blog posts about this because she does not have a gallbladder.
LIZ WOLFE: Mm-hmm.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: I will say, too, that people who don't have a gallbladder maybe haven't been diagnosed as celiac or gluten intolerant should probably assume they're pretty severely gluten intolerant, as well. If not completely grain intolerant. There are some known autoimmune links between gallbladder malfunction, cholecystokinin, which is the hormone that tells your gallbladder from your brain, you know, hey, release bile, so if that's not working, then you can presume that there's a little bit of an autoimmune situation in your body, and if the gallbladder is just the first thing, it's just one more reason to be really, really diligent about keeping your diet on track.
LIZ WOLFE: Yeppers.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Next?
LIZ WOLFE: All right. “Why no eggs, nuts, or nightshades for an autoimmune protocol?” This is your territory, D-Sizzle.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah, so when we get through the workshop and we kind of talk about anti-nutrients that are contained in grains and legumes, the reality is that there are also anti-nutrients in nuts and seeds, probably somewhat lower content of anti-nutrients because nuts and seeds do have other physical barriers as defense mechanisms, so you know, all of these things have a defense mechanism, and seeds often have like a hard shell to crack before you can get to them, so that tends to lower that anti-nutrient value, just by way of again physical barrier. But can be very, very irritating to the gut. You know, doctors even know, like GI doctors even know that nuts and seeds are often something that people should be avoiding, so that's, you know, kind of one that's out there and well known.
Eggs-eggs are the reproductive force of a chicken, or a duck, or a goose or whatever.
LIZ WOLFE: [laughs] The pterodactyl?
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah, so specifically in the white of the egg, but the shell is not that thick. Very easy to crack, as we know, and there are antinutrient properties in the white of an egg. So that can be pretty difficult for people to break down. The more cooked it is, generally the easier it is to break down, so same thing with, you know, soaking, sprouting, and fermenting we know reduces antinutrients in other foods. With eggs, cooking does tend to reduce it, so some people find that like runny scrambled egg, not great for them, but something that gets baked into something, they may not experience it as much in terms of the sensitivity.
And then nightshades are just known to have compounds…I'm pretty sure. I never pronounce it right. You can…I just can't pronounce the compounds. So..
LIZ WOLFE: Oh, yeah, not even going to try.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah, but they have compounds in them that are part of their anti-nutrients that are irritating to joints. So I don't generally say that, you know, people who are…let me reword that. People who are experiencing joint pain, immobility, issues of those types, nightshades, which I think nightshades are the hardest to eliminate. I know people think eggs are, but I actually think nightshades are even harder. Tomato and paprika, cayenne, that stuff appears in a lot of food.
LIZ WOLFE: Oh my gosh, I love paprika.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: It's really tough, especially…
LIZ WOLFE: You just made me so sad. I don't think I can finish the podcast.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah, especially if you're avoiding eggs and you're trying to eat more jerky, it's really hard to find jerky that doesn't have any like paprika or cayenne in it, so that's just one…yeah, it's tough. But you know, these are all things that can be irritating to system. And it's kind of like Paleo or not, it doesn't matter. You know that they can be irritating to your digestion, so that's why. And it doesn't have to mean that all of those foods are eliminated for you for more than 30 days. The point is this is really the most extreme situation, and the reason I tell people to do the autoimmune protocol is if you've got like 3 or 4 different autoimmune issues flaring up, not just thyroid, for example. You're like, my doctor told me I have this, this, and this. Or I have all these symptoms. That's when I say, go for the autoimmune protocol. If you just can't figure out like where to start or what to do, it's kind of the biggest slashing of all potentially irritating foods and then go from there. You can add one back. If you miss eggs the most, add them back. You know? See what happens on day 31. See how you feel. You might find…you know, you might even find you tolerate the yolks, but the whites are not comfortable for you, so it's good to check that out. But yeah, that's it, and actually if you're considering going through that protocol, I've got a lot of people who are already doing it. You can come over to the Balanced Bites Facebook page and like ask if people are doing it. I know, again, Stacy at Paleo Parents has done some Pinterest boards about it, different recipes. She did that protocol for awhile, and sticks to it pretty religiously now. I think she does like a day or two here or there where she might not be completely strict on it, but she's feeling a lot better without a lot of those foods. So it's just a way of testing, but yup. That's it. A couple more questions?
LIZ WOLFE: A couple more. “Why do we need to be sleeping in a pitch black room?”
DIANE SANFILIPPO: You want to talk about this or do you want me to talk about it?
LIZ WOLFE: I've got my copy of Lights Out: Sleep, Sugar, and Survival in front of me. The idea is really just like our body perceives light, not just through our eyes, but through our skin. And any kind of unnatural or, you know, man made light from electronics or whatever will be perceived by the body, by any kind of uncovered area of your skin, whether that's a tiny blue light on your television set or the light from your cell phone, and you know, sleeping with cell phones in your room is another issue. But the idea is our body needs to perceive either a natural light, like from the stars, or none at all. Just kind of that ancestral norm type of issue where we want to kind of replicate as much as possible those ideal sleeping conditions and something that you've said, Diane, that I just love, there…without electricity there are no night people. Like the sun goes down, you are done for the day. So it's just that idea of replicating those rhythms.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: I say some pretty good stuff sometimes.
LIZ WOLFE: Yeah, sometimes. [laughs]
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Did you like how Charles Poliquin has pillows stuffed under the door of the hotel room last weekend?
LIZ WOLFE: I liked it until I could hear the guy freaking knocking from outside because apparently he thought maybe you were trying to smoke yourself out or something.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: [laughs]
LIZ WOLFE: I don't know.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: They tried and shoved the checkout sheet under the door. I
didn't even think about that. And guess who had earplugs in? [laughs]
LIZ WOLFE: Yeah, guess who?
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Kidding. I offered you some. Oh well.
LIZ WOLFE: Yeah, but then I would have been able to take care of your problems for you. Freaking hotel bills. [laughs] Under the door.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Oh, funny. I get really crazy about like blocking things out in the hotel. Oh, yeah, and then your computer's pacemaker.
LIZ WOLFE: [laughs]
DIANE SANFILIPPO: That lights up.
LIZ WOLFE: It's not a pacemaker. Okay, so I taped an extra memory card to my Macbook because I forget it and it needs to be there on my computer at all times, so I had double stick tape, so I stuck the external memory.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: It's an external hard drive. It's not just a little card. It honestly looks like either a pacemaker or an insulin pump stuck to it.
LIZ WOLFE: [laughs] That's exactly what it is. I did not anticipate how much trouble it would cause me in airport security, but [sighs].
DIANE SANFILIPPO: It's like a parasite stuck on your computer.
LIZ WOLFE: Yeah, it's like those fish that stick themselves to Great White sharks.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: That's what it looks like.
LIZ WOLFE: Yup.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: I get a free ride on that computer.
LIZ WOLFE: Whatever. I'm a genius.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: [whispers] Genius. Okay. I had to cover it with a t-shirt because it was like glowing as if it was going to land. It was like…
LIZ WOLFE: [laughs]
DIANE SANFILIPPO: I was like, what is that light? It can't just be her laptop. What is that? Yeah, anywho.
LIZ WOLFE: Yeah, you notice things when you start to get neurotic about your sleeping environment. You start noticing, you know…
DIANE SANFILIPPO: But something too about being pretty much blind, which I am. A little tiny light becomes massive size…
LIZ WOLFE: Yeah.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: It's an effect of poor vision, so like, to somebody who could see well, I'm pretty sure that light wouldn't have been as bad, but for my like blurred out vision…
LIZ WOLFE: You're thinking it's like Flight of the Navigator, like spaceship landing or something else.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Just taxiing up in an airplane out there, I'm just kidding.
LIZ WOLFE: [laughs]
DIANE SANFILIPPO: I've got all sorts…
LIZ WOLFE: Aw, I love my husband.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: He's sitting right there.
LIZ WOLFE: He's so cute.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Okay.
LIZ WOLFE: Okay.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Question 9.
LIZ WOLFE: You feel like I tackled that adequately. Sweet.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Sounds good to me. Yup.
LIZ WOLFE: All right. Next up. “Can we use agave to sweeten desserts?” This is you.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: You can, but..[laughs] I used to like agave. You know, I was somebody who like, in the archives of my blog, which I'm not even sure how far back they exist anymore, but I've had a blog since probably at least 2007, maybe 2006? So if you were to go back through the archives, I remember when there was a time when I was like, oh, check out this low glycemic sweetener, agave. I also remember telling, you know, one of my diabetic, type 1 diabetic friends about it because like everyone else, I learned, you know, this idea that it was low glycemic. The reason it's low glycemic, meaning it hits the blood sugar slowly with less impact is that it's very high in fructose, so the sugar makeup of agave is very similar to high fructose corn syrup. I believe it's 50 or 55% fructose, and so what that means is that your blood sugar is blood glucose. Fructose actually has to go through your liver and be processed before it becomes glucose and gets into the rest of your system. So at first glance, this seems like a good idea. When you actually kind of get into it and look further into what's happening with just the liver metabolism and all the functions of your liver, your liver is detoxifying a ton of stuff all the time: incidental toxins, it's detoxifying hormones, it metabolizes cholesterol. So anything we can do to keep from taxing our liver more is primarily like the best way to go. Now fruit does contain mostly fructose, but what fruit also contains is fiber and micronutrients to help metabolize it, so it's actually giving your body what you need, giving your liver more nutrients to be able to metabolize it. It's not exactly the same as when you're eating a concentrated form of fructose, as in high fructose corn syrup or agave. So, you know, the commercials, like oh, I thought like sugar is sugar. Well, it's not really all the same. Perhaps at the end of the day to a very healthy individual who does not have any issues managing blood sugar, a little bit of agave here and there might not be the biggest deal. Like I know one of the coconut milk ice creams out there uses it. I don't feel that great when I eat that stuff. It could be because I eat an entire pint at a time.
LIZ WOLFE: [laughs]
DIANE SANFILIPPO: [laughs] It could be some of the ingredients. I always joke, but I'm like I don't know how people have trouble getting enough calories in. Like if you gave me a spoon and a pint of ice cream, there you go, a thousand calories right there.
LIZ WOLFE: True.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: The truth is, I wouldn't keep it in your house, buy it and use it at home. If you encounter it, completely sporadically here and there, I don't think it's going to be the biggest issue, but I wouldn't seek out products that contain it, and I wouldn't buy it. I wouldn't freak out about it when I see, like oh my gosh, I'm going to die here. I ate some agave. But you know, if I pick up a package and it's sweetened with agave, I just put it back. I'd rather find something that's maybe using honey, maple syrup, even regular sugar, I'd rather see as opposed to agave, just because of that factor. But that's really it. So I don't recommend it. Any other thoughts on that one? Elizabeth?
LIZ WOLFE: The agave plant is good for tequila and that is just about it.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Well, well said.
LIZ WOLFE: Well said. All right, last question. And we could really get into this, but I think maybe we'll just tease an upcoming blog post, and also kind of a broader discussion of this topic in our workshops, but “Why do you recommend fermented cod liver oil and not regular cod liver oil or fish oil?”
Well, I'll just tackle part of this question.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: I'll grab a beverage while you do this.
LIZ WOLFE: Yes, absolutely. So the reason that we recommend just the one brand of fermented cod liver oil, which is from GreenPasture.org-it's Blue Ice fermented cod liver oil-and it is also available in a fermented cod liver oil, butter oil blend-I feel like a ton of people that come to our workshops take this and that's awesome. We recommend the fermented cod liver oil/butter oil blend because it is fermented and not heat processed, like every other cod liver oil I'm aware of on the market. The value of cod liver oil is in its vitamin A and D content. Vitamins A and D are synergistic; they are profoundly synergistic, such that the sum of the two is greater than the sum of its parts, basically, is what I'm saying. So when you have heat processed cod liver oil, you will generally expect that the natural vitamin D content has been destroyed and either added back via, you know, some exogenous vitamin D supplement or it's not there at all. So you just don't have that same nutrient synergy that you have with the fermented cod liver oil. And I'm just not aware of anybody that's doing and creating this product in the same way that the people at Green Pasture are. So it's the only one we recommend. It's the only one I take, and I take it most days, if not every day. So that's the difference between fermented cod liver oil and cod liver oil.
As far as fish oil goes, Diane probably has a little bit more to say on it, but I am not a fan of taking large doses of isolated polyunsaturated fats. I think, from what I've read and the research I've done, the human requirement for polyunsaturated fatty acids, especially in a good nutrient dense ancestral diet is relatively low with a proportion of calories. So in my opinion, an anti-inflammatory diet, some sardines, some oily cold water fish is plenty to supply our biological need for these fish oil polyunsaturated fatty acids, those omega3s. Beyond that, we really don't know what kind of processing fish oil capsules undergo to get from fish to you. I do know from my reading on the history of margarine and the development of a lot of these oils, including fish oil, much of the impetus for the development of that industry was the fact that you can sell off the byproducts, the protein rich cake of animal feed. So I'm just not super convinced on a lot of the fish oil dogma, but that's just how I feel personally. I know Charles Poliquin feels differently. I know there are a lot of people who feel differently, and if you feel better when you take fish oil, by all means go for it. But I think it's always better to get those fragile polyunsaturates from food, wrapped up in their vehicles, which would be like fish, sardines, whatnot. Fish oil is very different from fermented cod liver oil. That's pretty much what I have to say. Fermented cod liver oil has a little bit of EPA and DHA, but biologically appropriate amounts that are naturally occurring and not stuffed into a capsule and there you go.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah, I think the quality of a lot of what's out there is questionable. I think there are very few high quality, reputable brands, and even at that, I don't trust how this stuff is processed. That's my gut feeling on it. And with that, the fact that we can get omega3s from food, and we can get adequate amounts that we don't all need tons and tons of the stuff. This is-research that I've seen from Chris Masterjohn when he's looking at the overall fatty acid composition of ancestral diets or some traditional cultures, what their diets are, the percentage of fats that they're getting from polyunsaturates is very, very low, and we do a really great job of getting there by eliminating and reducing seed oils, so I think it would be more critical for people to dine out less. It doesn't mean, you know, don't have fun with your friends and go out, but if you're dining out really often, every single day, and you're eating cooked foods from a restaurant, you're getting more polyunsaturates from the seed oils that you're eating. That's probably nullifying anything you're doing in terms of taking a couple of grams of fish oil, and you and I, as more holistic practitioners, I know that we tend to point people towards what's available in the food, you know? And I think it's a noble cause to get people to do something anti-inflammatory. I don't think there's any ill intention with the whole, like broad sweeping fish oil recommendations. Like I think those are, you know, they're positive recommendations in a lot of ways for the anti-inflammatory effects, but the reality of inflammation is, we need it. We don't want to be suppressing inflammation. We want to eliminate the things that causing the chronic inflammation, and I spent time with a lot of people who are like in the CrossFit community is they're just trying to hammer like every possible optimal thing they can do, and supplements are, you know, a really easy way to do that, but I don't vote for the easiest way. I vote for the way that's best for your body and that's best for overall health and nutrition, not just what's going to work quickly for now. What's my body going to do the best thing with, and what just feels the most natural to me? And so, you know, I grew up eating smoked fish really often. We ate a lot of lox, you know, wild caught salmon, maybe a lot of herring. As a kid, you know, this is like my German side.
LIZ WOLFE: [laughs]
DIANE SANFILIPPO: You know, even the Italian side, tons of fish. Like, this is a big part of the diet because it's way easier to catch fish, so if you had any kind of like coastal people, you'd be catching lots of fish. So I will tell people to go for the fish, and if it's not cost effective to get wild caught, fresh fish, do the canned. Liz and I often are eating different types of canned wild fish. We get the kind that doesn't have BPA in the cans. You know, Liz will do sardines a lot. I'll do kipper snacks, which is herring. I'll do wild canned salmon. And that stuff travels really well. It's kind of the good, portable easy snack, so that's kind of the flip side in terms of like where you can get this stuff. And then one other thought I have on it is I kind of cornered Chris Kresser at the Ancestral Health Symposium, and I was like, hey, you know, I know you don't recommend fish oil for most people. You know, he's one of the people probably 4 years ago-I learned about this stuff in my nutrition program. I learned about the fermented cod liver oil back then because as I said many times, I had instructors who were very Weston Price oriented, and the Weston Price Foundation is very big on this super food product. It's not even really a supplement. It's a concentrated super food. And I remember Chris had said it to me, back then fish oil was making me burp, and he said, try this one. It's an emulsified form, and you know, you won't need as much and your body can get it down. If you're getting burps, try this. Well, you know, years later, I'm realizing, it's easier to digest anyway. But just kind of in asking him a little bit more about this whole, is there something negative to it in terms of you know, what the research is out there. And he's like, well, you know, there really hasn't been much shown in research that around a couple of grams of fish oil a day is unhealthy for people. Now that doesn't mean that it's potentially not true, you know. It's possible that this stuff in long term use, depending on the source, may not be…may not be beneficial at all, but what he's saying is that we haven't seen anything that it's harmful. So it's really just to be [xxx] even on the information we're presenting. We have [xxx] a couple of grams a day of fish oil being harmful. That being said, just because it hasn't been proven guilty doesn't mean that it's innocent. So I think it's really hard to find research on things that, you know, we're not sure what kind of effect it'll have on human systems and human metabolism. They can't run studies that they think may be harmful, so you know, it's kind of a complex issue, and so whenever something gets a little too complex, I like to just keep it simple. Like, can we get this from our food in adequate amounts? Yes. Is it available? Yes. Eat the food.
LIZ WOLFE: [laughs] Eat the food! Tina, come get some dinner. You know, come get some ham.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Come get some ham!
LIZ WOLFE: Oh my gosh, on that note, now that we've entirely destroyed all credibility that we had going into this, what little that may have been, I think that's it.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Awesome. Then until next week.
LIZ WOLFE: All right, we'll be back next week with more questions. Until then, you can find Diane at BalancedBites.com. You can find both of us at the Balanced Bites workshops. Go to BalancedBites.com to find one near you. You can find me, Liz, at CaveGirlEats.com, or LizWolfeNTP.com. Thanks for listening. We'll talk to you next week.
Diane & Liz