Remember! If you're enjoying these podcasts, please leave us a review in iTunes, thanks!
1. Clearing up some “Useful Guides” recommendation confusion on sweeteners, fats & cooking fats.
2 Yersinia bacterial infection.
3. Are soaked/fermented/sprouted grains okay?
4. Effective female mass gain?
5. How to take Betaine HCl.
6. An oil for skin when coconut oil isn't enough?
7. Is there a Paleo version of the BRAT diet?
LIZ WOLFE:Hey everybody, it's Liz Wolfe, here with Diane Sanfilippo of Balanced Bites, and we are once again barely rolling…like sliding into home here. I'm like just logging in, too, the document. Sorry, Diane. Are you there?
DIANE SANFILIPPO:Are you worried? [laughs] I'm like, five seconds! Go! Okay.
LIZ WOLFE:4, 3…well, I…just in case everybody cares, I am broadcasting currently from the great state of Canada, and…
LIZ WOLFE:Yeah, so we're here in the Sunshine State. The military loaned me back my husband for a little while, so we decided to come up and see Niagara Falls, so yeah, everybody, go rob my house because I apparently I just told all of you that we're not home.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:Well, this will air and you'll be home shortly thereafter, I'm sure.
LIZ WOLFE:Yeah, we'll be..
DIANE SANFILIPPO:When I went to school in Syracuse, it was like…I had my boyfriend at the time went to Michigan State, and so Niagara Falls was kind of like that halfway point between Michigan State and Syracuse, or at least halfway, maybe him driving a little bit more. So I've been to Niagara Falls a lot. [laughs] It's like, for that to be your little like halfway point, being able to hang out for a weekend was kind of fun. It was always like huge busloads of like Asian tourists. I don't know what the deal was, but…
DIANE SANFILIPPO:It was kind of like, is that like their thing? I mean, cool. Niagara Falls is pretty freaking cool. It was like wax museum and casino is what I remember, and the Best Western that we used to always stay at. [laughs] Like..
LIZ WOLFE:Okay, wax museum. Hey honey, write that down. Wax museum. I think we should go.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:I don't think we ever went to it. I just always thought it was really funny, like the Ripley's Believe It Or Not. I don't know. The whole place like was very strange to me. It was kind of like the cross between…I don't know if I can say the Jersey Shore, but like the whole boardwalk thing and like Pier 39 in San Francisco because we had the whole Ripley's ordeal over there. And then like Atlantic City with the casino that's just in the middle of like whatever, and then this amazing, you know, waterfall, and it's so…it's just a bizarre setting to me, but fun place to be.
LIZ WOLFE:What's interesting is that I did not know what to expect at all. It's a pretty amazing place, I mean, from an natural standpoint. Like it's pretty phenomenal. Also, I don't know. I just feel like everyone is-they're like pod people. They're so nice. They're soooo nice.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:It's been awhile since I've been there.
LIZ WOLFE:And my husband is like the nicest person ever.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:[laughs] So it's like clones.
LIZ WOLFE:So I-I know nice.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:Did you go on the ride, Maid of the Mist?
LIZ WOLFE:What's that?
DIANE SANFILIPPO:Did you try the Maid of the Mist?
LIZ WOLFE:No. Write that down.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:It goes into the falls? You didn't do that? Oh, I think you have to.
LIZ WOLFE:I guess it's not running right now. I don't think it's running because we're kind of like, this is a little bit off season for us. Yeah. It's winter. We just thought we'd make the drive…
LIZ WOLFE:Oh, we did stop. We stopped outside of Buffalo, in Allentown, for…and we got some wings at…where was it? Was it Gabriel's Gate? Is that what it's called? And we heard about…oh no, I can't remember. There's two places that, you know, everybody tells you to go for wings. But this is apparently…
DIANE SANFILIPPO:Dinosaur BBQ. Oh, maybe not for wings. You need to go to Dinosaur BBQ for ribs on your way back. In Rochester or Syracuse, by the way.
LIZ WOLFE:Yeah, I don't know. Being from Kansas City, it's really hard for me to accept.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:Mm, I think you should.
LIZ WOLFE:such as such as BBQ.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:Make the comparison. Yeah, I think you should. Mm-hmm.
LIZ WOLFE:All right, I'm going to hate it. Just FYI.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:Okay, when I go to Kansas City, I'll eat the ribs there.
LIZ WOLFE:And then we'll see. Okay, cool.
LIZ WOLFE:All right.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:Well, so this is episode 26, episode 26.
LIZ WOLFE:Episode 26. Woo woo.
LIZ WOLFE:How about, okay, so…just in case…?
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Starting here.
LIZ WOLFE:Okay, I've got the document open, so I'm good now. We can get started for real.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:Oh, goodie. Is that what you were doing? You were stalling?
LIZ WOLFE:Should I do the disclaimer? Yeah, I was just stalling. I was actually doing my nails, opening Google Documents, stuff like that. Okay, so here's the disclaimer. The materials and content contained in this podcast are for general information only, and are not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. Anyway, so I've told you all about what's going on with me. Why don't you tell me what's going on with you?
DIANE SANFILIPPO:What's going on with me? Well, back home from…where was I last weekend? Oh, hanging out with you [laughs].
DIANE SANFILIPPO:Duh, went down to South Jersey, hung out with Liz down at CrossFit Tribe for a little bit, which was really fun. I don't know. I think we both had the same reaction when we parted ways. We're like, bye, friend! Don't leave. Oh, I want to keep hanging out with you. [laughs] Which was funny because that was only like our second time ever actually hanging out in real life. Right? I mean, for as much time as we spend…
LIZ WOLFE:Yeah, so weird.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:talking. I talk to you more than I talk to like my friends who are in town, but yeah. So then I was down in Wilmington, Delaware for a seminar at CrossFit Riverfront, which was awesome. Very fun group of people there. Lots of people, Liz, who listen to our podcast actually, and this happened also in Austin, Texas…
DIANE SANFILIPPO:you know, [laughs. Like a good percentage of people from the gym, but then a ton of people who just, you know, listen to the podcast, heard about it word of mouth, etc, so I think that's really cool 'cause then they're there because they really want to be there. It wasn't like their gym owner like, you know, holding their arm behind their back, You have to be at this seminar! [laughs] It's like, people actually wanted to be there. No, but so that was really cool. Nice group. And then this weekend I am heading out to the San Francisco Bay Area, back to where I lived for about 7 years. See some friends and teaching up at CrossFit Santa Rosa. So this is going live Wednesday, the seminar's like 3 days later, so if people can still register for that, there's still some space. And that's pretty much it. So I'll be in the Bay Area this coming weekend, and I'm excited to get out of this quasi-winter. I don't even know…it's like, winter never really came, knock on wood, to the East Coast.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:I'm not really complaining about that. [laughs]. So yeah, just heading back west, and then I'll be home for a bit, teaching at my own gym, which I'm really excited about, in Fairfield, New Jersey, Brazen Athletics. Information on the website, of course, about that, and then heading down to PaleoFX in Austin, where we'll all be shacking up and hanging out. A bunch of other Paleo peeps, and that's really it for now.
LIZ WOLFE:Bunch of nerds all getting together. Getting nerdy.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:Yeah, totally. It'll be fun though.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:I like when the nerds get together because like you know, 30% of the conversation is like super nerdy and then the rest of it is like…it's just like a null topic. Like we don't need to talk about like what we're going to do, where we're going to eat, you know, all that stuff. We just kind of all roll together and then when you throw out something nerdy like FODMAPs, it's like, nobody thinks you have two heads. They're like, yeah, yeah. Anyway.
All right questions. Let's get some questions.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:Yeah, let's do it. Okay, so question number one. We're going to get this one out of the way, so that if the individual in question would like to listen to this gooey wad of awesome we have going on here without sticking around for the rest of the podcast, they can do that. So…so when we get people objecting to our recommendations, it's usually the real, common normal objections that are generally originating in the crappy outdated science that we're still getting from quote unquote professionals like Dr. Oz, whose educational curriculum I can only assume just wasn't updated at the time. So, you know, that's pretty easy to just kind of deal with in my opinion. But I don't know. It just seems like academia takes awhile to catch up to these things, which to me is eff'ing tragic because it's like, what's literally killing people. You know, it's the reason people have closets, pantries full of whole grain cereals and statins in the bathroom drawer. So that's…it really gets to me, but anyway.
This particular question just seems to be someone who…all right, so I totally know this person because this person is doing what my husband would call nitpicking and what I would call strategery, which is cool because that's what I like to do myself, and I did that for years and years and years. Like when I didn't feel like really learning about something, I would kind of poke little technical holes in it, so I wouldn't actually have to dig my toes in and get started with something that was new or not familiar to me. And I'm kind of kidding, but you know what I mean? I just think that this person's concerns are easily addressed with either A. a little more research on her part. I think maybe she's reading it a little bit wrong or not as thoroughly as we'd like, or we can just give her a quick podcast explanation to kind of get this rolling. So I fear I take this opportunity to take you spitting some fire, Diane, right from the beginning. Should be fun.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:Great. Yeah.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:Yeah, I get a little fired up. [laughs] God.
LIZ WOLFE:All right. I just, you know…
DIANE SANFILIPPO:Let's read her question now.
LIZ WOLFE:Yeah, let's just get into it. All right, so here's the question: “So I was telling a friend about you, your books, your podcasts (which I enjoy). She is overweight and was planning on contacting you to hire you if possible because she trusts me and knows I won’t misguide her. But she did some research (thanks to Dr. Google)” That's funny. “and here’s the email I just got from her:
Dear So-and-so, So I was looking at Diane’s website and her pdf guides am kinda shocked at the bad information in them.” Diane, how dare you? “She recommends agave nectar in her sweeteners guide. Then in her fats and oils guide she recommends “saturated fats” for cooking (even though butter, tallow, lard, and coconut oil also contain polyunsaturated AND monounsaturated fats), and unsaturated fats (including sesame, walnut, pecan, flaxseed, and macadamia nut oil) for salad dressings or non-heated dishes. I’m not sure if I understand why she would recommend nut and seed oils AT ALL when you can get those fats from eating the nuts and seeds themselves right? This is so confusing and now I’m not so sure with her. And what’s with all the bacon pushing?” [laughs]
DIANE SANFILIPPO:I love it.
LIZ WOLFE:Oh my. Okay. “She also lists the “smoke points” of all the oils, and as it turns out that all the unsaturated fats have a HIGHER smoke point than all the saturated fats. If she is using “smoke point” as an explanation for why you should cook with saturated fats and only use unsaturated fats when they are non-heated, then shouldn’t it be the other way around? If olive oil has a higher smoke point than butter, tallow, lard, and coconut oil, shouldn’t we be cooking with olive oil and not cooking with butter? I don’t get it.”
So go, Diane, go.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:Okay, maybe I could be a bit kinder as to actually just make responses, but I just get really irritated when people, as you said, don't do any work and just want to poke holes and not actually think. So first off, this person clearly went straight to the guides without reading any of my articles on these topics. So I can't totally blame her for looking, you know, to the quick resources, and perhaps that means I need to update the links on those resources to note that the person should read the post before getting the guide…
LIZ WOLFE:Fair enough.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:and making conclusions. You know?
LIZ WOLFE:Fair enough. Yes.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:I always look at it from the user's perspective, you know, for customer/consumer perspective of like, okay, this is what you're telling me, you know, why you're maybe, possibly incomplete, but to the point of that, you know, like the point of those guides is to serve as a fast fact reminders after you read a post and hang the guide on the fridge, in the office, wherever. You know, you don't have to re-read the full explanation every time. So both sides of the story there, and you know, I think maybe justified in the links to the quick guides that say, please make sure you read this post before you download the guide, and jump to conclusions about what's being told there.
So regarding the agave nectar, either she's reading the guide entirely wrong, which again, I'll maybe address in redesigning it, or she's being totally too quick and not actually reading the thing, which separates sweeteners into non-chemical and chemical forms. That's the only point of that guide is to just say, hey, you should recognize that these are all forms of sweeteners. It's a really comprehensive list. It's probably not every possible sweetener out there, but it's really just to make a call-out to people to say, hey, when you see this ingredient, that's a sweetener. I separate them, chemical and non-chemical because my take is, you should never eat chemicals. Like duh. I just don't think I should have to tell people that, but, you know, when you look at a list of what the chemicals sweeteners, like that's a never. You should never have that. Okay, the flip side of that is there are non-chemical sweeteners, and what I did in that guide is I highlighted, and I'm pretty sure there's an asterisk and a note at the bottom that says “These are the ones that I recommend, if any.” And I'm like 99.999% sure I did not highlight agave nectar. I wouldn't, It's something that back in the day when it first came out, I probably was on a bandwagon in recommending, maybe like 6 years ago even. But I haven't recommended agave nectar in a really, really long time. You know, what's called out on there are like raw honey, maple syrup, molasses, maybe dates or even possibly date sugar might have been highlighted, as like, if you're going to do some sweeteners, here's some better forms. But definitely not recommending agave nectar. It's high in fructose and needs to be metabolized by the liver before it gets into your bloodstream, which is why it's known to not spike blood sugar for diabetics, specifically. You know, it has been called out as a good choice-excuse me-because it does take longer to get to the bloodstream, but that's because it's mostly being metabolized by the liver first. We don't want to tax our liver anymore than we already are with the toxic environment, people are drinking alcohol, has hormones to detox, etc. So totally misreading that guide and, you know, check out my post on sugar and sweeteners, and I will probably go back and link to all of these, you know, the posts that correspond with each guide.
But secondly, with regards to saturated fats, yeah, I recommend saturated fats for cooking. That is correct, and again, if she had read the posts on fats and oils, she would learn something, and not just, you know, assume that she knows better and become dismissive. So isn't the point of coming to a nutritionist to learn something? You know, whatever you're doing with your diet isn't working, right? I mean, there's a reason why you're looking for help, so perhaps a new approach is in the cards. So she's not sure why I recommend those thing. Perhaps taking the time to read about within the site would be helpful or just say she's unclear, but curious. You know, when you lose your curiosity, you stop learning and if you are not open to learning, well, I don't know what the point is of making through to another day. Right? Like I mean, if anybody thinks they know it all, then what is there to live for? Like I think learning new things all the time and you know, just being open to different ideas and situations. Of course we have some things that we hold that we think are true, but I think we have a certain curiosity for the most part. So that said, you know, I definitely don't recommend that people are eating a lot of nut or seed oils. They're on the chart to recommend that if you are using them, you don't heat them. That's why they're there. It's why I list them for cold uses. I think it's pretty obvious on the chart.
Again, with regards to smoke points, cooking fats and oils, again she didn't read the posts. I'm beating a dead horse here, but it just means that one, you know, maybe I need to change how these things are presented, but I think she needs to take responsibility for discovering answers to her questions. Nearly every blog these days has a search box, where you can search for information. I have a whole category dedicated to fats and oils. If she had just clicked around a few other places, she would have found some information there. I know full well that fats and oils are all combinations of saturated, mono, and polyunsaturated fats. It's listed on the cooking fats chart. But the way that it works is a saturated fat is more stable to resist oxidation, which is damage from heat, light, and air. So it doesn't really matter if a fat is-has a higher smoke point if it's mostly polyunsaturated fat.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:You would not cook with fish oil. It's mostly polyunsaturated, but I don't know what the smoke point is of it, but it might have a higher smoke point than coconut oil, for example, but you just don't cook with a polyunsaturate. You're going to damage it. It's a highly oxidizable oil, which is why it's sold in, you know, cold form, usually in a dark, opaque container. I mean, that stuff is just like ripe to be damaged, so when you look at something like coconut oil or butter, it's really hard to damage that stuff. It takes a lot more effort, so whatever the smoke point is on it will probably not even getting there; if we are, you're just not going to damage as much of that fat as it stands because most of it is already saturated, which again, I'm beating a dead horse. She needs to just go back and read these posts.
And as far as bacon pushing, like come on! I don't have any agenda on pushing bacon. I have an agenda on getting people to stop eating bread and refined foods..
LIZ WOLFE:You get paid by the bacon industry. [laughs]
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Like what the heck? You know, I don't want people eating bread, refined foods. You're right. I have t-shirts that say “Bacon is Rad.” I really couldn't care less if you buy this or not. I'm not sure where she finds that I'm quote unquote pushing bacon onto anyone. I could not care less if you ever touch a piece of bacon, to be quite honest about it. It's just that, you know, this whole wrap up into conventional wisdom and making assumption that bacon is bad for you really just grates on me. You know? I think when I teach the seminars, I basically kind of come to people and say look, everything you know about nutrition is wrong, so when people raise their hand with a question, and it's based on some assumption that we've been given from, you know, conventional wisdom for the most part, it's like, okay, well, let's go back to this idea that pretty much everything you know about, you know, quote unquote know about nutrition is wrong. So when you have this basic assumption that saturated fats are bad, that, you know, cooking with them is maybe not the best idea, it's just like you need to just forget what you think you know and listen to someone who's going to teach you.
That being said, I don't hope or expect that anyone blindly believes or follows what I say. I would actually hope and expect that they do their own research, as you said, Liz. Like, this is not something that I want people to blindly follow. I don't want anybody to take this as religious, you know. If you want to think that cooking with saturated fats or naturally occurring fats in nature is bad, I don't know. Keep thinking it. Do some more research. You know, see what some other experts and biochemists and chemists have to say about it. See what they eat and, you know, I just kind of take that as my guide. Like, look I know there are some people out there who are, you know, well-researched on this stuff from the scientific perspective. I listen very closely to what they say they eat because they're practicing what they believe the healthiest possible approach, and it definitely varies, but it…that's kind of, you know, that's where I take my own approach from.
So…I don't know. This whole list of questions got me kind of irritated, and it was also like, wow, you know. Not only, I mean, I'm not even really taking new clients right now. I just don't have time for it, so you know, it's neither here nor there to some degree, but I think in general, you know, people who are looking for support and answers need to come to the table with an open mind and a curiosity that allows, you know, them to learn something. Without that, I can't help anybody. And to be honest, I don't want to waste any more time on the podcast explaining answers to all of your questions. I recommend that she reads the posts and then rethink what she knows or quote unquote knows to be true without getting all bent out of shape over fire. Seriously.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:So yeah.
LIZ WOLFE:Woo pah!
DIANE SANFILIPPO:It was just like, this is the kind of person who like I just don't, you know, I think…I've heard Robb kind of talk about this before, where it's like, we don't need to argue with people. If somebody's open-minded and wants to hear something, cool. You know. I'll teach you something. Absolutely I will take the time to teach you. But when you come at me with this like sort of belligerent, like, is she crazy? I can't believe she would recommend this, and you know, I'm not so sure about you. It's like, all right. Calm the heck down and I'm not so sure about you, lady. You know, it's like [laughs]. I honestly, if I get someone who contacts me who's looking for some one on one coaching, like the initial call that we have…if they sound like they're not ready and open, I tell them, I don't think you're ready. Like I really don't work with people who aren't ready to listen to advice because honestly my most successful clients, well, half of them are…you know, I have male and female clients, and mostly the men do this, but like literally, if you listen to what I ask you to do and do it, it usually works. You know, it's like there's a reason why I have this as a career. You know? I know how to help people, but I can't help someone who's not open to the help and not willing to try things because what's the point of hiring someone otherwise. Okay. I'm done.
LIZ WOLFE:Well, in her defense this was an email from person to person. If maybe she had spoken to you personally, she would have been a little bit less…
LIZ WOLFE:open with her feelings, so poor so-and-so who sent us the text of this email. He's probably like, dear God, I hope she doesn't listen to the podcast 'cause I totally ratted her out. But honestly, I think…
DIANE SANFILIPPO:No, but it's totally anonymous anyway, so
LIZ WOLFE:[xxx 23:01]
DIANE SANFILIPPO:Sorry, your turn.
LIZ WOLFE:No, no, no. It's cool. I like it. And I also think like it's true, you know. I don't think it's a bad thing that this person like thinking and questioning a little bit, and yeah, you should always first and foremost trust your instincts and what you've found for yourself before you trust somebody else, whether that's you or me or Jillian Michaels or Weight Watchers or whoever. But the whole idea like don't blindly accept something and people without even realizing it they are saying they are operating from a foundation of false information that they've accepted as truth their entire lives, and that's you know, none of us are innocent of that, you know. Like for years, I ate lentil soup and margarine and whole wheat toast. So there you go.
LIZ WOLFE:But yeah, so, and you know, I did want to say real quick. Like we keep coming back to this stupid bacon thing, and like I'll say it again and again, like the jury is out on pork right now. It just is. Paul Jaminet of the Perfect Health Diet, like he's been talking a lot about pork and different kind of correlations between you know death, disease, and pork consumption and nitrate consumption, and all of these different things. But interestingly, in my opinion, still seeing where all of this research and where all of this talk amongst smarter people than me is going, I still see that even if we're talking about some kind of unidentified toxin in pork that increases different risk factors, we can still say that high quality, pastured pork that is cured, salted, and processed in the traditional appears, based on a pilot study by the Weston A. Price Foundation, appears to be safer than regular pork. Safer than a pork chop! So I still believe in my heart of hearts that bacon, prosciutto, in traditionally processed, high quality, pastured, humanely raised pork products are better choices than just regular old pork protein. So I will stick to that until I see something different in what I'm reading.
LIZ WOLFE:But everybody needs to get over this fear of bacon. It's just silly. To me it's like the fear of butter.
LIZ WOLFE:Like yeah, there are caveats in there, but come on.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:Absolutely. Yeah, and like to that end, I think that was part of the sort of intro to my epic post on bacon was that, look, you know, this is not about me telling people like cool, like go eat a pound of, you know, the cheapest brand of bacon you can find every single day. That's not at all, you know, what I promote. So she just…I think it just bugs me, and again, like you know, you said, she sent this question to a friend, and I think he was kind of like how do I respond to this? You know? He was just kind of overwhelmed with her potentially like negative response to what I'm putting out there, which I think he was probably surprised, and you know, he didn't ask me to cover this on the podcast, but I kind of replied with a, like this is just…this kind of approach just really, you know, gets under my skin when people have that attitude. You know? And it's really about attitude, so.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:Anyway, all right.
LIZ WOLFE:Because you've…a lot of us have spent a lot of time putting these very detailed resources out there.
LIZ WOLFE:I mean, Paleo bloggers galore, we talk about these things all the time. Nutritionists talk about these things all the time, and it's like, the information is right there, but somehow they chose not to read it. So it can be frustrating.
LIZ WOLFE:And even if it's bitchy on our part, you know, we'll be nicer for the rest of the podcast, I promise.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:Yeah, I mean, I also like…I kind of walk the line between expecting people to do a little bit of work. Like I cannot hold everybody's hand and every question that comes in through Facebook, I do my best to respond to or have one of my helpers respond to, but I can't always be posting a link. Like you have to do a little bit of work. You have to take a little bit of responsibility to find the answers, you know, like at least look once, and maybe you're [xxx 27:21], but if you can find something with a quick search, like come on, you know. I don't have time to be, you know, rehashing every time someone asks the bacon question. It's like, just search the blog, You'll find information. I put it there for a reason. I spent a lot of time writing those posts for a reason. So.
LIZ WOLFE:Yeah, that's what Robb always says. Pop it in the search box. All right.
LIZ WOLFE:Next question.
LIZ WOLFE:“Hi, thanks for a great podcast, I enjoy every episode.” That may not be true for this person after this episode, but we're glad up to now you've enjoyed every episode. “I’m wondering if you could talk about your take on how to best recover from a parasite and bacterial infection?” This seems to be coming up more and more. In my practice and I think yours as well.
“I was diagnosed with a yersinia bacterial infection and an unknown parasite infection in September/October. My doctor put me on Olive leaf extract (4 capsules a day) to beat the yersinia infection and probiotics; he did not give me anything for the parasite. I’ve taken the olive leaf extract for about 3 months, but I recently stopped on doctors orders. My last stool test to see if I still have the parasite was negative; I’ve not been retested for the yersinia infection.
Since I stopped the olive leaf extract some of my symptoms are back… My digestion does not work as well any more. Is that a sign that I’ve not completely beat the yersinia infection? Or perhaps I have some other dysbyosis? I’m still taking the probiotics.
I’m thinking about doing the GAPS diet. What do you think about it? Thank you!”
What do you think, Diane?
DIANE SANFILIPPO:All righty, so I did a little bit of research on this. And it looks like, the specific infection she's referring to may have some links to Crohn's Disease. It may like promote or trigger Crohn's Disease, which in that case it would be good to consider yourself, you know, at this point, in the boat of dealing with a bit of an autoimmune response in the body. So we've talked about what that means before with regards to food and potentially taking it a few steps beyond standard Paleo. So she's already mentioned, you know, possibly trying GAPS. That might be a good idea. The standard autoimmune protocol would be no grains, legumes, or dairy. It also eliminates eggs, nuts and seeds, and I would say, you know, nightshades, I don't know if nightshades are that, you know, much of an issue for her, but the actual types of veggies, like tomato. Tomato skin can be really irritating to the digestion, so I would have her pull all that stuff out.
I think perhaps the olive leaf was calming down the immune reaction that she was having regularly so that felt probably pretty good to take, and maybe now it's flaring up again. Just educated guesses on this stuff. Not positive. But I would definitely try the GAPS protocol at first.
Focus on removing anything irritating to the system. Probably try that for at least 30 to 60 days. I would also look for a practitioner, who can run Metrametrix stool test, that will test for the DNA of the pathogenic bacteria and not just the bacteria itself, so it's a little bit more accurate. It's possible that it's still kind of sitting around there, and they're just not catching it on the test.
So also something else I've kind of been learning a little bit more about the details on is SIBO, Small Intestinal Bacteria Overgrowth. So it's also possible that this infection is rooted in some of that kind of disruption of your digestive system. Small Intestinal Bacterial Overgrowth has a lot of different root causes, but low HCL is a really profound root cause of SIBO. So without proper acid in the bolus of food that's traveling out, all the enzymes signaling as well as the tone of the muscles in the stomach that promote healthy peristalsis, which is the movement of food, you know, down through your digestive system. All that stuff can be off if your hydrochloric acid is too low or your stomach acid. So you know, if hydrochloric acid is too low, then the acidic level of that bolus of food, the chyme that's going to pass through to your small intestine, the signaling can be off which can lead to some downstream bowel defects, so like the opening and the closing, for example, of the pyloric sphincter, which is between your stomach and your small intestine or the iliac or the ileocecal valve, so between your small intestine and your large intestine, if that whole bolus of food is passing through. So I would start with, you know, maybe it's a GAPS protocol as she mentioned, but I would really work on getting your hydrochloric acid improved.
What that really means is first and foremost, reducing stress in your life. She doesn't really mention too much about it, but I, you know, can make some assumptions that if she's dealing with this infection, there's some stress that she can perceive, but any other systemic stressors. Definitely reduce stress. Take possibly some betaine hydrochloride for that kind of support. You could also get your stomach acid tested. There's a-I think there's a breath test for that, I'm not sure exactly what it was. I would check out-there's a podcast on Dr. Lo Radio and we can maybe link to it, with another naturopathic doctor, who's specializing in SIBO, in Small Intestinal Bacterial Overgrowth. And I thought it was a really interesting podcast. I listened to it very recently, and you know, it kind of sounds like she's dealing with some of those issues. So again, on the stress point. Stress is not only going to inhibit her HCL production, but it will also inhibit what's called the migrating motor complex, which is in the small intestine, and it happens largely overnight while we sleep or between meals when there's no food in the small intestine or we're fasting. And this is an involuntary activity that cleans up the small intestine, so this is something that would help your body to, you know, continue to move any remaining food particles, keep any bacteria kind of moving through as they should. And if you had any sort of backwash from your large intestine to your small intestine's bacteria or from your stomach to your small intestine, your small intestine really shouldn't have too much bacteria in it, and most of that bacteria should be more…a little bit possibly in the stomach and then more in the large intestine, where a lot of your absorption is happening. So if too much of it gets into the small intestine and then it's not actually getting through and cleaned up during this process of the migrating motor complex, then that can cause more issues for you.
So if that's what's happening, if this bacteria isn't going away, maybe taking some of those steps could really help and we'll link you to more information on the whole SIBO thing and also my post on why you want more stomach acid, not less, to learn about how to increase your stomach acid naturally. And I think-I think those things might help her out.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:Cool. Do you have some notes or…?
LIZ WOLFE:Just…we can throw…I was just listening to one of Chris Kresser's podcasts on GI issues that might be helpful, so we can just link that in the show notes, too.
LIZ WOLFE:But that's all I got.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:Cool, cool.
LIZ WOLFE:All right. Okay, next question. “One of the most important books I read in my journey to better health was Nourishing Traditions by Sally Fallon, which has grains and legume preparation and recipes, so I’m wondering if grains and legumes are prepared properly, soaking for twelve hours or more and then sprouting or slow cooking, are they really still bad for your body?”
And I'll just jump right in on this. I'm most definitely of the Weston A. Price persuasion in many ways, and I know Diane, you are as well. We love the organ meats, the fermented foods, the traditional foods like cod liver oil, and I personally am even of a fan of like good, quality raw milk for people who tolerate it well, although I personally don't incorporate it often. I will at times. I just think that in general, where better foods are available, like more quality carbohydrate sources, vegetable sources as carbohydrate which come wrapped up with some nice nutrients and good, soluble, fermentable fiber that the bacteria in the colon really love. It's just no contest between the two. I think we've heard, I don't know if it was Robb or it was Chris Kresser that called beans like “Third World proteins.” They're just not awesome. And so just to kind of contextualize it, the way I contextualize the use of properly prepared grains and beans, it's more looking at the fact that before we were such like a global society, and when traditional cultures maintained a much more regional and kind of availability dependent diet, a lot of these cultures found ways to make potentially problematic foods that were, in spite of that fact, some of the only foods and best foods available in their region, they found ways to make these foods safer for consumption. I mean, there's a very traditional way of preparing sourdough bread that basically eliminates…ferments away most of the problematic constituents inherent to grains, and pretty much makes it gluten free. I mean, I think there's a little bit of talk about whether it's really gluten free or not, or whether the protein is just broken down beyond recognition. I don't really know 'cause like I said, I don't really incorporate these things. But these cultures just found ways to make those foods safer for consumption. But we don't have to make that call anymore. You know? It's just kind of one of the, the way I look at it, few benefits to such a globalized society, and we really just don't have to make that call. We can choose the most nutrient dense stuff possible. And carb-dense stuff, too. You know? Sweet potatoes are a really dense source of carbohydrate.
That said, I have to say that even though I choose not to eat these things, from a client perspective, and I might get kicked out of, you know, Paleo-Land, I'm not super dogmatic about the food when it comes down to these like properly prepared additions, like the soaked beans and even sometimes, really kind of ancestral grain, like spelt and legitimate gluten free sourdough, and stuff like that. I do start from the eliminate for 6 to 10 weeks and add back to see how you do, because I just think that's smart. But then again, like I really start thinking about the mindset and personal food values and stuff like that. When someone is enjoying one piece of sprouted, properly prepared ancestral grain-based bread, or like fermented buckwheat pancakes like Chris Kresser does now and then, and when they're doing this, say part of like a healthy breakfast that they love, that also includes eggs and butter and a cup of broth and all those goodies, and that makes them feel calm, and they respect the food and the process of making. And it makes them sane and they're relaxed and they're happy. A lot of times, I'll say fine, do it. But just make sure all of the other ducks in a row first. So that's pretty much how I feel about that. What do you think, Diane?
DIANE SANFILIPPO:Yeah, I have a similar perspective, for sure. I just don't really see a place for them in most modern diets. At least, especially in this country where we have access to more, you know, bio-available nutrient dense foods. But I won't argue with someone that it's certainly possible to be eating those foods in a whole form, prepared in traditional ways. I just don't see it happening much in this country, and in modern times. I think it's too easy once we tell people that soaking, sprouting, and fermenting may be okay for them to translate that into grains are okay. Back to the whole bacon point, that said, I generally say bacon is okay. I don't want people to translate that into I can eat a pound of garbage quality, grocery store bacon a day, and that's promoting health.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:So you know, both sides of the coin there, but in all honestly, I think, you know, we may have been okay eating grains ancestrally, I don't think it works for us now for a lot of reasons. Largely, I believe it's our constitution, so what I mean by that is the foundation upon which we were literally built as a developing, you know, fetus or as an infant and a child. I think, you know, whether or not we were born vaginally or via c-section, were we breastfed, how long if we were, were we raised on formula, you know? Did we eat whole foods as a kid? You know, there are some people who are like, yeah, my parents were totally hippies; we ate, you know, whole food. We never ate garbage, but you know, I probably grew up on a lot of whole food that my parents cooked, but then a lot of Pop-Tarts, Ho-Hos, and mac and cheese. You know, that was a big part of my youth, and so, how often did we get sick or we were given antibiotics often as kids and growing up. I think these things profoundly impact our gut integrity and our ability to digest even a properly prepared grains.
You know, I think my take on this…there's a couple of examples that I can think of. Back in my nutrition education days at Bauman College, I had some religious vegetarians in my class, and they really didn't like me. I never told them like what to do with their own food, although both of them, at least there's a couple-two or three-like they all had a spare tire around their midsection, and I'm like okay, you know, if you feel okay about that, you know, you're holding your religious views about your diet because maybe traditionally, your culture ate soaked and sprouted grains and legumes, and I don't doubt that, you know, their parents or even grandparents were perfectly healthy until very old ages, as they would tell me in class. Well, my dad is 90 years old and he's perfectly healthy. I'm like okay, but that's your dad. He's been, you know, living in a different country for a really long time, and was probably raised totally differently and then this is, you know, the next generation, and then even their kids, and it's like, if their kids were born in this country, it's just a totally different setting, a totally different environment, you know, hospitalization of birth. Like I can get on a soapbox of a million different things around the entire first couple of years and even, you know, being like even the way pregnant women are living that either promotes or destroys our own healthy digestive function.
So, you know I have a friend who's Irish, born in Ireland, and like thinks I'm totally crazy about this whole gluten thing. You know, every now and then, he like stops eating bread or stops drinking beer and notice that he's a little less, you know puffy and, you know, can kind of lean out a bit, but he's like I don't feel anything. And I'm like, well, you weren't born here. You were probably breastfed for 2 years. He's like, yeah, I was, and like grew up in a totally different space of food than the rest of us were, so you know, with the whole antibiotics thing. I can't even count how many times I took antibiotics as a kid. Never took probiotics. Maybe ate yogurt, but it was like, you know, Dannon loaded with sugar garbage, so I think the yogurt craze in this country maybe is one of the only saving graces for a lot of people's guts, even though it's loaded with a lot of sugar. I bet people are probably getting so much more probiotic content from that then, you know, pretty much anywhere else. It's like…you know, I really think that. I think it's probably one of the saving graces, for better or for worse, where you know, based on where it's coming from usually. I think, you know, people can certainly be healthy eating all sorts of different kinds of foods, you know. You said this, Liz. Like who are we to tell you you're not healthy, if you are. But if you're not healthy, and generally people who come to us are not healthy, seeking some sort of improved level of health, then I just don't see even properly prepared grains promoting that. You know, after you've gotten rid of it for awhile, you want to try it again, it's your prerogative. You know, it's your body, not mine. I don't do it. I don't think most people have time for it. Most people complain about having time to cook breakfast, so you know what?
DIANE SANFILIPPO:I just don't see most people soaking, sprouting, and fermenting grains. And that doesn't mean everyone. You know what I mean? I know Chris Kresser has posted on his blog before about fermenting buckwheat and making pancakes out of it? 95% of people listening to this podcast are not in the same situation that he's in. So you know, if you are, cool. More power to you. Do it. But unless you think that your health is already optimal, and you just want to try something else? I just don't think it's…you know, I don't think it's the best way to go. That's it. I don't eat grains. I don't ferment them. I don't soak them. I'm eating PaleoKits half the time because I'm on the go. I don't have time to soak and sprout and ferment. But if you do, rock on. I don't know. [laughs]
LIZ WOLFE:Yup. Agreed.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:That's it. [laughs] Ay yi yi.
LIZ WOLFE:You know, let's skip this next one. It's too long.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:Do you want to get down to some other questions? Okay. That's cool. You know, do you know how much time we have?
LIZ WOLFE:Yup. Let's do more.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:Yeah, we have like 15-20 minutes. So yeah, let's do the couple…I posted I think on Facebook today that we would take a few kind of quicker questions, as we had obviously a couple of really long ones. So we've got a couple of good ones that I liked here.
LIZ WOLFE:Cool. All right. Oh, this one's right up your alley. Okay, Karen asks: “I love eating the Paleo way, don’t do bread/rice/pasta/nuts/seeds, I eat tons of avocados/good fats and eat my fair share of protein but I do want to build some bigger muscle mass” I love when women want to talk about how they want to build some bigger muscle mass. Like that just kicks ass. You go, Karen! You go, Glen Coco. Okay.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:Oh God, I haven't seen that in forever.
LIZ WOLFE:Yeah, I know. “I struggle to make any gains eating Paleo even with the heavy workouts – any thoughts on how I can change my food to help?” You go, Diane.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:Uh, yes. a few thoughts. Well, one, it would be good to see what you're eating currently because it's really hard to make recommendations without seeing what a day's worth of food is. I would actually recommend that you enter a day's worth of food into something like FitDay, and you know, see how much you're eating. I have definitely seen people who think they're eating a lot, and then they're not at all. A lot is relative for sure, but…and I don't know, you know, how tall she is, where she's at now with height/weight/body comp, any of that. But I think it's good to get a baseline and enter maybe a few days worth of food. Just see what you do normally without like paying much attention to weighing and measuring, but, you know, measure it so you can see what you're doing.
That said, you know, if you're eating a ton of fat and having trouble gaining muscle, I would definitely bump up your protein intake, you know, eating your fair share. Yeah, I know this is something we talked about before. Getting a gram of protein per pound of bodyweight. It's not that easy, but if you're trying to put on some mass, even a gram and a half or up to two grams, but I think a gram and a half of protein per pound of bodyweight. So just for example, if she weighs, you know, she weighs 150 pounds, more than 150 grams of protein, that would be like what 2-over 200 grams of protein a day. And that's not by weight. That's with one ounce of you know, meat being around 7ish, 8ish grams of protein. That's just one side. You know, she said fair share, I don't know what that means. Maybe eating a little more carbs, just starchy tubers, butternut squash, that kind of thing. Not only can that kind of help promote a little bit of gain, but can promote your appetite a little bit more. I don't know…I would try one thing at a time for like a couple of weeks. You know, first two weeks, just add some extra protein to each meal or snack on some extra protein. Jerky, that kind of thing. And see how it goes for two weeks. Then I would move on the next two weeks, just add on top of that. Okay, if you're adding more protein and you're feeling good, but getting to where you want, maybe add some more carbs.
I mean, generally when we're trying to gain, more food is usually quite useful. It can be tricky as women because we don't have as much testosterone. You know, it's hard to put on muscle mass easily. Easy to put on body fat, so I would make sure that you're not putting on fat if you are gaining any weight from this. And just kind of, you know, possibly getting hormone levels checked if you think that you know, you start eating more and you're just gaining body fat. But by the same token, the workouts. You know, going heavy with your workouts, I think is a good idea. I think moving slowly. I don't know what else you're doing in your workouts, but if you're trying to gain mass, heavy weights and moving slowly. I wouldn't do too much metabolic conditioning at that point. But that's really it. I think food logs, you know, whether it's totally entered somewhere online or just kind of written down, I think that's your most useful tool. And I don't think you need to be crazy about it, but I think writing down a few days and then assessing what's happening, and then kind of returning to that, writing down some days and assessing what's happening. And I think that's probably the best way to go.
I don't know…I don't know if I have too much more on that. You know, if her digestion is good, she feels she's digesting and absorbing everything she's eating, that's probably another big point that I tend to make for a mass gain approach is that, you know, you don't want to be experiencing symptoms of leaky gut trying to gain mass 'cause that's completely counter-productive. You won't digest and absorb all the food you're eating, so take a look at your eliminations. Are they, you know, well-formed and regular? Or do you have anything loose happening or anything that's not just a well-formed medium colored elimination? Because if you're not eliminating properly, then digestion is compromised and you need to fix that first.
Any other thoughts on that one, Liz?
LIZ WOLFE:Nope. [laughs]
DIANE SANFILIPPO:No? Okay, that's as quick as I can be. Next!
LIZ WOLFE:I like it.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:Pretend that some of these like wearing off…
LIZ WOLFE:I got a message from someone saying, Soy is bad, right? [laughs] Oh God. Oh God. Okay, here's the next question. Susan says: “Betaine HCL…should I be taking it immediately before, during or after eating? Perhaps some combination, like during and after?”
I can just throw my answer out there real quick. Usually when I start somebody on HCL, I'll have them start with just like one capsule per meal per day, and then increasing by one per meal per day. And this is a really conservative approach, but do that until a feeling of warmth or kind of heat in the stomach occurs, which in about 5 minutes of taking it. This is like peri-meal-this is like within the meal. And if the warmth becomes uncomfortable, they can just, you know, they can take it some Tums or bicarbonate or something like that. No big deal, but you basically just build it up until you feel that warmth, and that's when you step down a notch. Pretty simple. So what do you think?
DIANE SANFILIPPO:Yup. Yup. Sandwich it in your meal, so start eating, you know, get several bites into the meal, and then take it. That's it.
LIZ WOLFE:Okay, next one. Trisha asks:..
DIANE SANFILIPPO:I put this one in for you.
LIZ WOLFE:I love it. “Coconut oil is not strong enough for my dry skin in the winter. Is there anything else I can use on my body, not my face, to help with winter dry skin?
Yeah, I totally, and I do want to throw in there, you know, you're positive you're digesting fats properly. Sometimes if you're not digesting fats super well, you will deal with drier skin than you actually need to deal with, so sometimes I'll just do a little bit of like digestive supports just to kind of be sure in the winter that I'm properly digesting everything just because I can get some pretty gnarly dry skin. But I was just talking to Hayley-Hayley Mason from Primal Palate the other, and I'm really like the body lotion from Tropical Traditions, which she said that's working really well for her. I'll do jojoba oil, which I really like. I'll also do some body butters from Rose Mountain Herbs. Really just play with it, and see what you like better. Coconut oil isn't always the best I've found for everybody.
A lot of people actually like jojoba oil better than coconut oil despite the fact that coconut oil is kind of, you know, considered this like beauty panacea. But I would play around with some jojoba oil, maybe some rose hip oil, cocoa butter, shea butter. There's lots of goodies out there. Go play around on RoseMountainHerbs.com, see what kind of butters they have. It's really…honestly, it's just different for everybody. But I would say something I do like to do is just kind of lather up before I go to bed, put on some kind of insular tights and let it really soak in. That's my opinion.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:Cool. Maybe we can link her up to that.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:To whatever those recommendations are. I do the same thing, though, like especially if I shower before bed, like I do use coconut oil, but I like slather on a ton of it, and then put on my cozy sweats and socks and whatever, and let it soak in. Cool. All right, so last one, and it sounds like your connection, like your fancy Skype, Niagara Falls connection might be getting a little bit choppy, so…
LIZ WOLFE:Oh no.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:Just a little broken up. And for the people who complain about the sound quality, like there've been a few on the reviews. I'm like, come on. This is a free podcast. When, you know, one day, maybe you know. If we can do something differently about it, we'll try…it's just, you know. If you can hear us, that's pretty much…that's all you really need.
LIZ WOLFE: Sorry about that.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:Yeah. If a whole podcast is like completely inaudible, we'll fix it. We'll re-record it, whatever. But usually you can make out what we're saying. But last…last question.
LIZ WOLFE:Last question. Am I coming in okay?
DIANE SANFILIPPO:Yeah, Jen's question I think is good.
LIZ WOLFE:Okay. This question of BRAT diet. This sounds like I don't know what it is, but I like it.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:So Jen wants a Paleo version of the BRAT diet. The BRAT diet, you won't like. The BRAT diet is for GI upset, and it consists of bananas, rice, apples, and toast. Yeah, you don't like it so much anymore, hunh?
DIANE SANFILIPPO:But what it looks liek…yeah, what it looks like mostly they're trying to do, and I actually know Jen, so I kind of followed up with her to just like ask her what was going on. She said that her kid is experiencing some diarrhea and actually still breastfeeding. I don't remember how old he is, but I think he's still under 2 years old and still breastfeeding and doing some solids. She said veggies and meat. But it looks like what they're trying to do with the BRAT diet is exclude tough to digest fibers, although I'm like seriously, with rice and toast? It's just…the whole misconception around the fact that white toast is easy to digest just kind of drives me up a wall.
But anyway. I think from a Paleo perspective or you know, whole food/avoiding grains perspective, you could opt for a GAPS approach. What might be a little bit, you know, easier or less severe at first would just be to try eliminating FODMAPs from the diet. They tend to be categories of vegetables and fruits; it does include grains and other things that from a Paleo perspective we're not eating anyway, but you can remove FODMAPs. You can find that list, just do a Google search for like FODMAP chart. I don't have one yet, but I probably will at some point. And find the list of foods that are included in that. I know that things like carrots and string beans are not FODMAPs, so those can be easier ones to digest.
I would strongly recommend though that the kid get in some probiotics, so Klaire Labs, I recently recommended that somebody look for Klaire Labs. That's with a K. K-L-A-I-R-E. I know they have an infant formula, so that could be an infant formula of probiotic. I don't mean an infant formula. But it is an infant probiotic that you can get on Amazon. I think that used to be just a practitioner accessible line, but I think you can get that on Amazon. So that might be useful. If you're still breastfeeding, you can, you know, dust it on the nipple before you feed, or find a way to get it into, if you have bottles of breast milk saved up, get it in there. Especially if this is happening from a dysbiosis, so an imbalance of his gut flora. But you know, traditionally, the BRAT diet is used for things like diarrhea, other gut/intestinal/digestive imbalances, and when it comes to a breastfeeding infant, pretty much, you know, looking at what you're eating that you might not be digesting, it's sort of like step one, and also again that probiotic content. I think this kid was born vaginally. I think she's been breastfeeding from the beginning, but he' still could be eating things that you're not breaking down well, so you may even try doing, you know, avoiding FODMAPs for yourself. Keeping your veggies to a more limited list. Again, like carrots. I think sweet potatoes are okay. Green beans, again, there's some like pretty limited, pretty non-insoluble fiber rich veggies, so veggies that don't have too much that's insoluble, and anything cruciferous is not recommended. Cabbage, kale, broccoli, cauliflower, Brussels sprouts, not recommended. I would definitely get those out of your diet also. But that's pretty much it.
I would try that for awhile. I definitely wouldn't put him on bananas, rice, applesauce, and toast. That's pretty just like nonsensical, completely. If you need to pull him down to a, you know, meat only and no veggies, or even, you know, trying….I think the bananas might be okay, as they're starchy, but I wouldn't do rice or toast. I actually wouldn't do apples either. They're definitely a FODMAP and known to be really irritating to a lot of people. So what you're doing for him, I would honestly do for yourself as well. And take that very seriously for at least a couple of weeks. See what kind of response you get, and go from there. That's what I think.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:Cool. Cool. I think we can wrap up. I think we pretty much hit an hour of shenanigans.
LIZ WOLFE:Coolness. All right, so we'll be back with everybody next week. Until then, if you want some more goodies, or you want to submit a podcast question, head over to Diane's website. That's BalancedBites.com. Alternatively, if you want an alternate option, you can come waste an hour with some convoluted stream of consciousness junk, you can head over to my site for that, CaveGirlEats.com. Or you can stop by our Facebook pages and drop us a line as well. We always love to hear from you. Usually we don't spend 20 minutes dismantling your question at the very beginning of our podcast, so you don't have to worry about that. That probably won't happen. Just let us know what your questions are, and we'll try to be nice.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:I'm making a face. I hope we don't get hate mail from that.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:Hopefully that whole thing is totally anonymous. I don't even…like I don't even remember who the guy was that sent me the email. I don't know this other person's name. We don't know who you are. We're just answering the question.
Until next time…
LIZ WOLFE:You know, I got to say, I think sometimes when women, I just think there's a little bit of a double standard there. When women are, you know, a little more harsh about stuff sometimes, people think we're mean, whereas I know, you know, there are some podcasts with some of our favorite male Paleo evangelists, that can get pretty salty and I don't think it makes anybody else mad, so before you hate on us being mean, just examine your own double standards.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:Oh, I've certainly heard now that I'm back in New Jersey that people are like way more appreciative of my sort of no-nonsense, like here's how it is, kind of approach, and it makes me appreciate being back on the East Coast because people laugh when I get really no-nonsense about things because they're like, all right, she's just going to say it like it is. And I really am. I have no reason to not just call it like it is, you know. I'm not…especially, you know, I'm not face to face with this person, to be quite honest. I do it face to face with people too. I try to have a little bit of balance between that soft, nurturing, you know, compassion type approach, and just when someone, but when someone is giving me a list of BS, you know, arguments, I just can't. I won't be soft with somebody who's not open and you know, receptive to hearing anything other than what they already think. You know, so they're going to…if they dish it, they got to take it.
LIZ WOLFE:I've gotten used to this whole like…this whole East Coast thing. I don't know. Being from Kansas, I think we're a little softer over there. But honestly, when you were sitting down with Steve, who is also a New Jersey person, I swear to God, I thought you guys were fighting like the whole time. But you weren't at all. You were just talking to each other.
LIZ WOLFE:I'm sitting there thinking, oh my God. Is this bad? Is this taking a turn for the worse? No, you guys were just talking like normal New Jersey people.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:That's how Italian people talk. We don't talk, we shout.
LIZ WOLFE:[laughs] Exactly.
LIZ WOLFE:Liberati and Sanfilippo not fighting, and scaring the crap out of me.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:And Wolfe is just like crouched in the corner.
LIZ WOLFE:Oh my God.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:What is going on?
LIZ WOLFE:I was clicking my heels together. “There's no place like home” Oh God. Anyway, all right, so I'm going to go do some Canadian things and I'll talk to you…
LIZ WOLFE:When I talk to you.
DIANE SANFILIPPO:Okay, later. Have fun.
LIZ WOLFE:Later. Bye.
Diane & Liz