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1. Child with Autism & weight gain help [8:37]
2. Paleo recommendations confusion [11:37]
3. Hepatitis C & Paleo [27:23]
4. Vitamin A toxicity and fermented cod liver oil. [38:33]
5. Pregnancy and fructose malabsorption. [45:15]
6. Approved sweeteners: vegetable glycerin? [ 53:37]
Click here to download this episode as an MP3.
LIZ WOLFE: Hey everyone, I'm Liz Wolfe. I'm a nutritional therapy practitioner and I'm here with Diane Sanfilippo, who is a certified holistic nutrition consultant and the woman behind Balanced Bites and the new book, Practical Paleo. Remember our disclaimer: the materials and content contained in this podcast are intended as general information only and are not to be considered a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Welcome to episode 55, I think, of the Balanced Bites podcast. Diane and I are actually doing this via like video chat, which could be completely disastrous. [laughs]
DIANE SANFILIPPO: I'm going to start making faces at you.
LIZ WOLFE: Oh my God, please don't. So I had like the best night ever, Diane, last night, and I know you did, too, because the New Girl, New Girl premiered. Two episodes of New Girl, and not only that, but I also got to have some of the first Steve's Original Apple Pie PaleoKrunch and the Apple Pie PaleoKit, which are like insanely delicious. I just love everything about fall. I love cinnamon and apples and apple picking and the fact that you sound just like Zoey Deschanel when you talk. [laughs]
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Well, I have bangs, so it's complete.
LIZ WOLFE: You do have bangs. You're quirky!
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah, you have Zoey [xxx] feet.
LIZ WOLFE: You're being quirky with Zoey Deschanel! [laughs]
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Oh no.
LIZ WOLFE: Oh my gosh. So what's going on, girlfriend?
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Well, so fall food. I made some pumpkin muffins yesterday. I actually made some using my own recipe. Someone was like, where'd you get the recipe? I'm like, from this book that I wrote? [laughs]
LIZ WOLFE: [laughs]
DIANE SANFILIPPO: It was really funny. I was at the gym. I was like, yeah, it's actually my recipe, but I shouldn't even really take all the credit for that because without Hayley Mason, I wouldn't have muffin recipes in the book, so thanks, Hayley.
LIZ WOLFE: I feel like without Hayley Mason, I would be nowhere.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Like, the world wouldn't exist?
LIZ WOLFE: The world would not exist without Hayley and Bill.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: I would definitely look like a troll on the cover of my book. People see the book, and they're like, wow, this is…you look really pretty. And I'm standing right in front of them. [laughs]
LIZ WOLFE: Like, great, thanks.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Wow, you really cleaned up for this book cover! No, that's Photoshop, man. So anyway, I made these muffins and then I realized that I couldn't feed them to a bunch of people who were at my gym doing the Paleo challenge because I'm not letting them use any added sweeteners.
LIZ WOLFE: Aha.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Except for fruit. So they can do like bananas and apples and things like that, so I made a new batch yesterday using banana and a whole bunch of carrots. Like a butt ton of carrots, like 3…
LIZ WOLFE: A what?
DIANE SANFILIPPO: A butt ton.
LIZ WOLFE: This is not good because seeing each other like this makes us way casual.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Like, we're laughing. It's funny. So…
LIZ WOLFE: It's funny. Laugh!
DIANE SANFILIPPO: They were awesome and people wanted me to post the recipe, but I can't post two days in a row pumpkin muffins, can I, on the blog.
LIZ WOLFE: Of course you can.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: So maybe next week.
LIZ WOLFE: If I can eat PaleoKrunch and never mind. If I can eat a whole thing of Cinnamon Krunch right after I eat a whole thing of Apple Pie PaleoKrunch, you can post about pumpkin muffins two days in a row.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Two days in a row? Well, it'll be next week. What else? I don't know. I have a couple of announcements that I'll be making, not yet, probably starting next week on the blog. I did actually announce a new member of the team, Courtney Locklear.
LIZ WOLFE: Woo hoo!
DIANE SANFILIPPO: But I keep thinking it's like Heather Locklear and Courtney Thorne-Smith has merged and become like a superhero.
LIZ WOLFE: She's pretty much that adorable, though. I personally think Heather Locklear is adorable, maybe not so much now, but [laughs]
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Back the in day?
LIZ WOLFE: Courtney Locklear is adorable is what I'm saying.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah, so she's going to be writing some cool stuff for the blog, so I'm excited about that. And that's it, for now. What about you? Catching up on your reality TV?
LIZ WOLFE: Yeah, pretty much, you know. I had like a whole like, after yesterday's amazing fall evening, like I got up today, put on, you know, some long sleeves and some jeans and was ready for it to like still be fall when I walked outside, and it was like a pressure cooker, so I started sweating immediately, forgot my keys, forgot to record the replay of the Oprah episode of Keeping Up With the Kardashians, and I'm just like, [Valley Girl voice] I mean my life could not get any worse right now. [laughs]
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Okay, so there goes the whole Valley Girl thing. Maybe we should answer some questions?
LIZ WOLFE: Yeah.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Or should we tell people where we're going to be this weekend and the next couple of weeks? Where are we going to be?
LIZ WOLFE: I think so. This weekend, we're going to be in Easton, Massachusetts at Vagabond CrossFit. Why are you looking at me weird?
DIANE SANFILIPPO: I just made the same exact face as you. [laughs]
LIZ WOLFE: [laughs] This is bad.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Sometime I should record this with video so y'all can see what we're doing, making faces at each other.
LIZ WOLFE: Oh, it's just silliness.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Okay, so Boston area.
LIZ WOLFE: Yup, Vagabond CrossFit, doing the Balanced Bites workshop, which is going to be super fun. And hanging out at Diana-what's Diana's? I always forget because Diana just moved.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Rogers.
LIZ WOLFE: Well, I know it's Diana Rodgers, but what's her…from Radiance Nutritional Therapy, but her new farm because they just moved from one to another, and it's Carlisle Farm, is that right?
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Clark Farm in Carlisle, Mass.
LIZ WOLFE: Okay, Clark Farm in Carlisle. So we're going to have like dinner with her, and stay over with her, and collect eggs in the morning and have a super dank breakfast, and it's going to be awesome. And yes, I just said “super dank breakfast.”
DIANE SANFILIPPO: I don't even know what that means,
LIZ WOLFE: It's something I learned at the Wakarusa Festival in Lawrence, Kansas about ten years ago.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Wow.
LIZ WOLFE: Five years ago. I don't know.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: All right, well, the weekend after that, October 6th, we're going to be in Atlanta at CrossFit Peachtree and a couple of new events that I have coming up. Book signings. Sunday-oh, that's wrong. It's not a Sunday at all. That date is totally wrong on the website. Anyway, it's Friday, October 12th, is going to be a book signing in the Pittsburgh area. And then, I think Thursday, October 18th, we're still working on details, but I think I'll be doing a signing here in New Jersey in West Orange, probably at my local Whole Foods, where I'm like a local celebrity who shops in the store. People recognize me.
LIZ WOLFE: That's why I wear hats everywhere I go because not that anybody would ever recognize who I was, but on the off chance I saw like, you know, my high school math teacher or something, I just don't…I'm just so awkward in person. I can't…I just can't handle being recognized by anybody.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: I had…I had this cashier who was like, “you look really familiar. Hey, you're the girl on the cookbook!” Yes, I am, thank you.
LIZ WOLFE: You're the girl on the cookbook. Speaking of books, by the way, I think the cat's pretty much out of the bag on my book that's dropping in the Spring of 2013. I tried to play it close to the vest for awhile just because dang, dude, it is hard work to write a freaking book. I mean..
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Really?
LIZ WOLFE: Yeah, so I'm pretty much kind of going through that now, but my book, The Modern Cave Girl, will be out in the Spring. I dropped the news to Jenny of Easy Paleo, and have been talking a little bit about it at our workshops, and then I saw a couple people on the Interwebs, on Facebook posting about it, so…the cat's out of the bag. That's kind of a placeholder cover. It's a little cartoon Cave Girl that folks might recognize, but we've got another cover in the works and I'm working my tush off on this book. It's really going to kind of have a more historical perspective. I like to…I was telling Jenny, it's kind of like Gary Taubes meets Lucille Ball, but more like a Kathy Griffin impersonator or like Carrot Top at his most intoxicated meets like Encyclopedia Brown or some other kind of B grade or 12 year old investigative type. But it should be fun.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Carmen Sandiego.
LIZ WOLFE: Carmen Sandiego meets Kathy Griffin impersonator.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yes! Can't wait to read it.
LIZ WOLFE: [laughs] Wah wah.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Wah wah.
LIZ WOLFE: Bwa bwa bwa buhhh. [laughs]
DIANE SANFILIPPO: This really does make us have a little bit more silliness when we can see each other because when we're together, it's just like ridiculousness.
LIZ WOLFE: Yeah, Jimmy Moore is just slapping his forehead right now. Get on with it.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Girls, get on with the questions.
LIZ WOLFE: Get on with it. All right.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Hi Jimmy. Okay, let's answer some questions.
LIZ WOLFE: Let's answer some questions. All right, question number one. “Autistic child needs help with weight gain.” Sheryl says: “Aaron just turned 12 and weighs 58 pounds. The doctor is concerned and has recommended protein drinks at night right before bed to help keep weight on him. He’s gained 4 pounds in 1 year. He is high functioning autistic and is on only 1 med at this time, but it is a med that has a side effect of loss of appetite. So when we do sit down at meals, he doesn’t eat much, but he’s so active that he burns everything off so quickly. Is there anything that I can do to feed him that will help put the weight on him and stick to a Paleo-ish diet- sticking to a paleo-ish diet that I have the kids on?” So Diane, I think you've got definitely some stuff to say on this one.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah, just quickly, we've definitely covered similar questions before. I'm not sure if they've been specifically about autistic children, but I know we've had a lot of parents who have been confused about, you know, just how to get more calories into their kids or how to drive up their appetites if at all possible. And so, one thing that I would say just to get more calories which is kind of a recommendation we make to a lot of people looking for more calories and quite the opposite of what we tell people who are not looking to get a lot of calories in, but would be some coconut milk smoothies. And that's probably one of the easiest ways to get a huge whack of calories from the coconut fat, and then a bunch of carbohydrates from the fruit. That might also help drive his appetite a little bit. It may also be some…just kind of a good way to get a lot of calories that he doesn't really need to eat, and it may feel a little bit more like a treat, or, you know, an ice cream shake or something like that if you freeze the fruit ahead of time and make it cold. Then it feels like ice cream, and you know…I would try not adding sweetener at first and see what happens. If he will go ahead and drink that, just go for it. If it needs just a tiny bit of honey, like even just a teaspoon, just to kind of, you know, have him get more of that in, then that might be helpful. And then I would say to track back on some of the old podcasts and see how we've answered this question for some other people before, and I would probably, you know, if he does well digestion-wise with some of the sort of like Paleo grain free treats and whatnot, you know, if he'll eat that, that's an easy way to get a lot of calories in, so I would kind of try on that front. That would kind of be my first bet. I'm assuming that you are already really trying your best to get him to eat meat and veggies, but that sounds like that's probably not working as well.
LIZ WOLFE: Good job. All right, cool. Next question. You ready for this one?
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah, well, well, I think this one's yours, so are you ready for it?
LIZ WOLFE: Shoot. I guess I am. All right: “What Paleo is to one is not Paleo for another, or help with defining Paleo.” Alisa says: “These series of questions actually come from my sister. She is an RD who for a long time, was very skeptical of the paleo lifestyle. She’s suffered from many ailments over the years including adult acne (she’s 32), PCOS, IBS, etc. I convinced her to read some books and now she’s starting to see the light, though doesn’t agree with everything. She’s changed some of her eating habits and even bought your book and has been cooking from it. Additionally, she read Cordain’s book, The Paleo Diet, and is stumped by the discrepancies between his work and yours. I know some of his work is outdated and not based on grass-fed/pastured meats, but could you help me out with this. I already got back to her on some of the things and told her it’s also very individualistic, but want to make sure I’m giving her valid info, especially since she was so resistant for a long time. Anyway, see below for what she sent me:” And I believe this is a letter from her sister. Maybe not a handwritten letter; this is probably an email. “I have read The Paleo Diet (Loren Cordain) & Practical Paleo (you convinced me to buy that one). I am not strictly following the diet and don’t know if I agree with everything these books have to say, but I did enjoy reading them and I have been having a lot of fun experimenting in the kitchen and have found a lot of recipes that I love. Reading these two books has left me with some questions though and I wanted to see if you knew the answers. These two books contradict themselves at several points, mostly related to fats. Cordain recommends limiting fats a lot more than Diane does. He doesn’t recommend using butter/bacon fat/tallow/coconut oil and he also recommends lean proteins such as white meat poultry without the skin, no bacon and lean cuts of meat.”Oh my gosh. I'm dying reading this right now. That would make me so sad to eat like that, even if it was healthy. I wouldn't do it.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: I wouldn't either.
LIZ WOLFE: Yeah, so all right, “Diane doesn’t even have a recipe for white meat poultry without the skin on.” You should be eligible for an award, I think, for that.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: That's because I don't eat that stuff at all, by the way.
LIZ WOLFE: Yeah. “She uses decent amounts of butter/coconut oil in cooking. She also seems to use and recommend cuts of meat that aren’t that lean. I understand her reasoning that these grass-fed meats are higher in omega-3′s & CLA, so the extra fat is almost a bonus, but I’m having a hard time comparing her book to Cordain’s book. Also in Cordain’s book, he doesn’t really recommend using all the coconut products (milk, butter, and oil). They are not included in one single recipe of his. He also kind of discourages people from using some of the “flours”, specifically almond flour. I have definitely become more interested in the Paleo diet and think the diet promotes a lot of good things, but the differences between these two books has been puzzling me a bit. Is there something else that you know of that I could read that might better explain these things? Anyway, that’s everything she asked me about. Could you help me with some further explanation when you get a chance? I know you’re a busy woman, but I’d greatly appreciate it! Best, Alisa.”So…
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Do you want to tackle this one at least from, I mean, you can tackle some of the questions about fat, and just kind of, you know, we have a similar approach to that, and then if there's any outstanding questions thereafter, I can tackle them.
LIZ WOLFE: Yeah, I could say so much on this topic because this is like, this is a good, however many words…this is probably a good 3000 words of my book. Now I'm thinking in words instead of pages like I did in college. But I hate to compare this or even kind of like draw this line between Paleo and veganism and Weight Watchers, or what have you. But the fact is, any kind of dietary interpretation, any kind of set of qualifications for any kind of lifestyle, food type lifestyle is going to vary from person to person. Every vegan doesn't eat the same thing. You know, maybe they don't eat animal products, but there are people that do high fat raw vegan, there are people that do, you know, cooked foods, low fat, or, you know, there's just a million different interpretations of these things, and what it comes down to, you know, right or wrong, is that people find something that works for them. So it sounds like her sister is finding some things that resonate and that's great. I have a suspicion that she's going to keep looking into this and keep learning, as I did, and probably you did as well, Diane, and these things will kind of evolve in thought over time. No pun intended. Here's the thing about Cordain's book. I'm not sure which of Cordain's books she read. I know there's an updated version, or at least I think there is, but generally when folks inquire about the contents of the Paleo Diet book by Cordain, they're actually talking about these things that she's asking. The focus on lean meats, the focus on getting omega-3, irrespective of the vulnerability of the sources of those omega-3s. What we teach in our workshops is the difference between polyunsaturated, monounsaturated, and saturated fats. We talk about how most fats found in nature. That's like in nature as in without an intensive refining process. Fats like tallow and lard and butter and even olive oil, they're actually mixes of these different types of fats: mono, saturated, and polyunsaturated. So when we talk about different sources of fats with respect to their stability in our workshops, we rank them based on how well they stand up to light, heat, and air because we don't want to be eating damaged fats because those fats are incorporated into the lipid by-layer of our cells. What we eat becomes us. So the fact is omega-3s are polyunsaturates. They are, by nature, vulnerable to damage, which is why in nature they come packaged in things like fermented cod liver oil and sardines, nuts, in the more highly saturated fats in animals, basically just stable vehicles. So that's why we advocate getting those from their whole food sources. I don't know. Just with that context, this whole question is just flat out something that wasn't fully considered in the Paleo Diet book. Cordain was coming at this from a different perspective, and ten years later, or however many years later, we have the benefit of multiple sources of science, a huge body of evidence, historical evidence, anthropology, biochemistry, and we can kind of distill these things and bounce them off our own common sense for kind of their practical application in our lives. We all kind of know at this point that this is not a historical reproduction. This is a framework. We look at old food. We look at things that helped us evolve, you know, in a healthy manner. Things that prevented diseases of civilization. We talk about these Weston A. Price ideas in our workshops where we're actually looking at traditional cultures that are more recent, that lived on foods that were available in this modern context, in this modern world. Yet we're kind of falling out of favor among populations that were actually at the exact same time becoming very unhealthy. So we're just looking at all these different things from multiple angles, and not just taking what one guy who is coming from one angle said in one book. I think that's really one of the strengths of your book, also, Diane, is that you've kind of distilled all of these perspectives and made sense of them from that historical, the common sense, the scientific perspective. Unfortunately, I can't really provide an adequate primer on all of it in just a few minutes, but obviously I tend to lean towards what we talk about, what you've talked about in your book. I just think it's a little bit further down the line of understanding and knowledge.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah, I think there's one point here that's really…you know, I have a lot of respect for Loren Cordain for writing the book that he did. I don't think we'd be here talking about this stuff if he hadn't. But, you know, I definitely have disagreed with a few things that were in that book as well, and when I read it the first time, I pretty much put it down when I saw him recommending canola oil. And I think threes just a difference between, you know, clinical and research -based diet recommendations and practical and client-based clinical practice recommendations, you know, based on holistic treatment of a person, and not just looking at what happens in a lab, or even just looking, you know, just looking at what happened historically, or what we might have eaten historically, and you know, I don't think that the original recommendation to be using something like canola oil could have been based on history because canola oil only was introduced a little over 30 years ago. So that was based on, you know, research about how potentially beneficial omega-3 fats are, but it just didn't flesh out the entire story of polyunsaturates. And so, it's a little bit incomplete, and I do think he's reversed his stance on saturated fats in his book. I think it's called The Paleo Answer, so…
LIZ WOLFE: Yeah, 'cause at the time…
DIANE SANFILIPPO: She can check that out.
LIZ WOLFE: we were so worried about saturated fats, it was like, well, we've got to find these omega-3s, but we can't find them, you know, from these saturated fats that are still not “okay.”
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Right.
LIZ WOLFE: But now we kind of know better about that.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: And I just think, you know, my perspective is the…it's almost like marrying, you know, the sort of Robb Wolf perspective of “Do it for 30 days, tell me what happens,” and the science behind it. I mean, obviously Robb says what he does with a lot of science, but it's the kind of perspective of like, here, I'm going to tell you why these aren't unhealthy for you because that's your assumption right now. That they're unhealthy, and you're scared, and what does that leave you with? Like that's my big thing about what I teach people to eat, is that when you're scared of something for undue reasons, it leaves you eating the alternative, which in this case is usually grains and beans and sugar. You know, and people are scared of fat and protein. They end up just eating sugar, and that doesn't make anybody healthy. So I think that my perspective on it is really based on a lot more, you know, holistic education and clinical practice, and seeing what's working for people in terms of how they feel, how well they're doing in terms of blood markers, and you know, just overall lifestyle improvement vs. you know, looking at what may have been done historically and how that might affect us. I'm looking more at, you know, an actual day to day practice.
LIZ WOLFE: I muted myself.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: You were muted?
LIZ WOLFE: I was muted. So yeah, I know even from that original book, The Paleo Diet book, I know there's been some talk about Cordain's publisher having edited his recommendations heavily for mass appeal reasons or politically correctness reasons, which is a reality, unfortunately in the publishing world. Luckily, it was not for your publisher nor is it for my publisher. We have the same publisher. But I don't know how far that type of editing goes into his manuscript, that original manuscript, or how many of his recommendations were affected and maybe changed, I don't know. Like, exactly what you said, I respect him deeply. I don't think he's, you know, lacking in knowledge in any way. But in general, I'd kind of look at that original book now as a more broad perspective on assumptions about Paleolithic diets that served as an excellent springboard for more discussion on what our ancestors really would have eaten. We now understand how highly valued fat would have been for its nutritive value and its caloric density. And that was true all the way up until the 1900s.1950s, 19-eh, 1950s is kind of where it got a little sketchy, but our ancestors also would absolutely have gone for the organ meats, the offal, and such, you know, disgusting things that we've been kind of trained out of eating in the modern world. And also, we also will have a question about, I think, cod liver oil, about vitamin A here in a second, and that was something that Cordain also was unsure about, maybe didn't have…we didn't have the same knowledge about vitamin A and its synergy with vitamin D when Cordain was making some of his recommendations. So we know more about that now. From the perspective of just replicating ancestral norms by whatever modern means we have, we could say, sure, canola oil has a balanced omega-3/omega-6 profile, and I guess as far as the Paleo Diet by Cordain, that's what was considered, but then you have this whole band of science geeks saying, wait a second, this isn't just about anthropology or epidemiology or what have you. It's also about looking at the other angles, like how processed is this food? Like you were saying. We're trying to-we're trying to use these foods that we have available to us now to get us back to this ancestral balance, and that requires a lot of thought because we really have been pulled very, very far from those kind of raw materials for life. Those real nutrient dense, historically valued foods, so now we're asking ourselves, not just what did a caveman eat, but we're asking how are these modern foods made? What are some other potentially problematic aspects of them? Like as we've talked about, canola oil in our workshops multiple times. So anyway, what this is really about is being on top of the most current science and information and blog chatter and that's not always easy unless it's your job to search the internet all day for what people are talking about, what the scientists are writing about, and stuff like that. So I rambled a little bit.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: And I will say this, as kind of my last thought on it, but these questions are actually some of the reasons why Cordain's book is not the first one I recommend to people because I know that it's kind of a little bit older and I definitely don't agree with a lot of what's been said in there. I usually recommend The Primal Blueprint first, and also obviously The Paleo Solution, so I tend to recommend those. I know that Robb's take in the book on a lot of things, like maybe saturated fat and even some of the blood marker parameters that he put in there were knowing that he needed to appeal a bit to a mainstream audience and that, you know, if he said things that were too off for what they were expecting, it might be, you know, it might be a little bit too, too far out in left field for people to really get it and try it. But obviously, you know, I think what he puts forward there is really sound. So I would check those two books out, if she's basically looking for how to make more sense of this and what else would be informative, I would say read Mark Sisson's book, The Primal Blueprint. I think that'll be pretty helpful.
LIZ WOLFE: Yeah, that's a great one.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: And she could also read Nutrition and Physical Degeneration. But that may not be…
LIZ WOLFE: That would be a great one.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: But I mean, if she's an RD, then hey, that might be actually really interesting for her. I wouldn't recommend it to the average Joe or Jane, perhaps.
LIZ WOLFE: Just because it's a little repetitive and boring. A lot of tooth counting.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Dense. Or Good Calories, Bad Calories.
LIZ WOLFE: Yeah, that one's available on audio book, on Audible, Amazon's…
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Good Calories, Bad Calories is?
LIZ WOLFE: Heck yeah, it is.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Did Gary Taubes narrate that?
LIZ WOLFE: No, unfortunately he doesn't.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Man. He should have to.
LIZ WOLFE: It's a guy that sounds a little bit like Mat LaLonde, in my opinion.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: If you wrote this giant book, you should have to narrate the whole thing. Don't you think?
LIZ WOLFE: You totally should. I would want to narrate my own book, but he might
have a few other things going on.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: I'd love to hear your book on audio.
LIZ WOLFE: Maybe I'll do it. We're going to listen to that when the air force moves us across the country. It's just going to be straight up, thirty-six hours of Good Calories, Bad Calories. All right.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: For yourself and the Cave Husband?
LIZ WOLFE: Oh yes. For myself, the Cave Husband, and the Paleo Pooch.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Nice.
LIZ WOLFE: Cool. All right, next question. “Hep C and Paleo.” Mary says: “I have Hepatitis C and have recently switched to a paleo diet. Can you provide any info for paleo people with Hep C? I initially just wanted to switch to a fat-burning instead of carb-burning food source in the hopes of losing those last 10-15 pounds. But now I am obsessed with my health and nutrition and just want to restore my body to its optimal health, while being a good steward of our lovely earth and its beautiful creatures.” Oh my God. Mary just articulated everything that I care about. Restoring the body to its optimal health while being a good steward of our lovely earth and its beautiful creatures. Steward. I love that. Mary, fricking genius. I'm stealing that. All right, so…” I am prioritizing my health over my desire to be skinny, and I can’t thank you enough for your support in that regard.” I love you, Mary.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Woo hoo!
LIZ WOLFE: I want to fix you dinner. Okay.”Anyway, sadly I have hepatitis C, which may cause problems digesting protein and fats. I will be getting a liver biopsy soon to find out what my genotype is, and if necessary may undergo either 23-weeks or 49-weeks of interferon/ribavirin treatment to eradicate the virus from my poor little body. By all accounts it is 6-months to 1-year of living HELL, with many major physical side effects, as well as extreme depression. In the past 6 months I have become deeply committed to eating good quality meats and fats, moderate protein, and no grains, sugar, or legumes, and only limited dairy and fruits. The process was slow. I finally eliminated full fat yogurt and heavy cream in an attempt to lose some weight. I have not lost any weight on the paleo plan, and I think the dairy and sweeteners were a big culprit. So I cut out sucralose, and dairy a few months ago, with the exception of Dutch gouda cheese, which I hope I don’t have to give up, but will if I have to. I just cut out xylitol a week ago or so and feel really stupid for not quitting that sooner, as it is known to damage to the livers of canines and probably humans too, but they only say it’s toxic to dogs.” So basically I think the rest of this question is just giving us some background. She lives in California and she eats, you know, an abundant produce as much as possible, get some good, you know, decent exercise and such. She also says she was taking a ton of supplements, but have cut way down since she developed liver pain. “Now I just take magnesium, vitamin b, and vitamin c. I take Benadryl several times a week for allergies and I sleep like a baby 8-9 hours every night. Sleep is a huge priority. I go to bed early and usually fall asleep listening to you guys, Chris Kresser, Robb Wolf, and Nora Gegaudas.” Yes, we will definitely put people to sleep with this podcast. [laughs] Diane, what do you think about this?
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Well, so…for…I'm not muted, am I? Okay.
LIZ WOLFE: No, you're good.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: First and foremost, I want to remind people that, you know, any nutritional advice that we give people that are dealing with specific health conditions, you know, it's not that I'm qualified to do and trained in when it comes to supporting the body for a person who has a specific condition, and that's why a lot of what I did in my book was information to that point. At the same time, I don't want anyone to think that you know, what I'm about to list off as some recommendations as anything like “this is going to magically cure you.” The whole point of nutritional support through food and possibly some supplements is really just to help your body do the best that it can to come back to balance, and to, you know, a little bit more of a healed space. So that being said, there's a whole bunch of different things that can be supportive for hepatitis, and a few of them food wise are things like increasing glutathione, which is known to be pretty rich in things like cruciferous vegetables, so cruciferous vegetables include cauliflower, broccoli, bok choi, collard greens, kale. There's ton of cruciferous vegetables out there, and then also curcumin to help lower overall systemic inflammation, so you can get curcumin from turmeric and also from different curry powders, which have turmeric in it. You can use that in your cooking. You could take it as a supplement, but my recommendation would just be to use it in your cooking. I have a bunch of spice blends in the book, one of which is called the Cooling Spice Blend, and that one is really based on those ingredients to help that, and so it's got…I think it's even got some cinnamon in it. And maybe some other green herbs, I can't remember exactly everything I put into that blend. But that one is intended for an anti-inflammatory effect, just nutritionally through food. So avoiding high fat, as she's said, you know. Fat can be a little bit tough to digest, possibly protein might be a little bit tough. I would avoid too much iron, so you know, see how you feel with red meats. If they don't feel great; if it feels like you're having trouble with them, steer away from them as a more regular thing for now. And you know, this is one of those places where the Paleo diet is customizable. You know, it's one of the plans of my book too is that it's not a one-size-fits-all cookie-cutter approach. So some other things to avoid. You've already knocked out the sugars. If you are drinking any caffeinated beverages, coffee, tea, any alcohol, obviously, or maybe not as obviously, to get rid of that. I would also avoid eating anything late at night. Your liver needs to kind of go through some cleansing processes, and this goes back to a little bit of Chinese medicine. If people are waking up usually between like 1 and 3 am, it sometimes indicates liver detoxification problems, so what we want to do is just keep your liver from having to do too much metabolically overnight. So keeping your dinner a little bit early would be helpful with that. In terms of the overall detoxification support, avoiding eating late at night, but also drinking lots of water, and making sure you're getting organic food. So this is where, you know, for some people we say, getting everything organic is not super critical for your success. This is one of the cases where I would say, you know, your liver can't really handle too many extra toxins. Avoiding, you know, pesticides, fungicides, herbicides, all that stuff. So getting as much organic as possible. Taking in as much fiber through vegetables and some fruits, whatever you feel you tolerate, that would also be really beneficial. And all that stuff helps with detox. Avoiding fried foods, just to kind of again, keep the stress off your liver of processing all of that. Some other foods to eat that are supportive. Eggs, if you feel good eating eggs, especially the choline and the lecithin will help to emulsify fats that you're eating. Some other greens that are beneficial besides what I've already recommended in terms of cruciferous or just other bitter greens are things like dandelion, arugula, also radishes, beets, artichokes. And shitake mushrooms can also be supportive of liver detox. And fruits like citrus fruits, so using lemon juice, you know, on salad dressings or even in some water. And then just a couple of things that I can recommend in terms of supplementation again to support liver detox, which you know, if you're feeling like, you know, your liver is hurting with too many supplements, that's obviously not a direction to take you down, you know, take you down that path too far, but I would start out even with something like silymarin, which is, I believe, typically packaged with milk thistle. Or things like dandelion leaf or dandelion root tea. Artichoke leaf extract, licorice root extract, again turmeric, ginger, or green tea. And I'm a really big fan of teas for getting herbal support. It seems like a pretty, pretty mild approach, but can have very nice therapeutic effects, and you can very easily sort of titrate up or down. You can drink these teas like once a day, up to 3, 4, 5 times a day. See how you feel. If it feels like too much. If you're feeling effects positively or negatively, you know, you can adjust that pretty easily. And the tea should be a lot easier on your liver because it's stuff that will be a little more directly absorbed. You're not going to have to process it as much through your digestive system as like a capsule. So what else? Hmm, I have a bunch of other notes here on supplements that I think it would be useful to just work on supporting yourself through the nutrition, through the food, and through the herbal supplements. So just a couple of other things on lifestyle support. You know, the basics are what we talk about all the time. Sleep, maybe taking a walk after meals, and just kind of keeping your body moving regularly. Frequent saunas or steam baths can be helpful. And this stuff is all helpful in generally in supporting liver detox. So if anybody's dealing with like multiple chemical sensitivities or any other types of detoxification. [xxx] this isn't just specific to hepatitis, but it can be supportive of a liver detox in general. Acupuncture, aromatherapy, massage, meditation, deep breathing, all different things to help you relax and just kind of give your liver the sort of calm environment it needs to do some self-healing. And that's all I have for her.
LIZ WOLFE: That's all you got to say about that?
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yep.
LIZ WOLFE: Cool. I learned a lot in the last 5 minutes, Diane. Thanks for that.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Did you? Awesome.
LIZ WOLFE: I did.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: And you know, I'll say this, too. Dr. Brian Walsh, who's done a lot of work on like different endocrinology issues and also some detox issues, he's…I've heard him say many times that we could all be taking a milk thistle supplement, like regularly. I think he gives it to his family regularly just because of environmental toxins that we're all dealing with all the time. So that's just kind of something that people could note if they're concerned at all about detox. Milk thistle's a really good one.
LIZ WOLFE: You know, I really like Dr. Ron's…the different supplements that he's come up with as a naturopath. He's pretty amazing, and I noticed the other day. I was just kind of looking through his…I think it was his skin health formula, which I ended up recommending one of my clients try. And she really liked it. But it actually contains milk thistle, I believe. So I was noticing that and just thinking well, yeah, that kind of makes sense if we're looking at the liver as really just the clearing house of what's going on in our body.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Nodding along here. It does make sense.
LIZ WOLFE: You're nodding along? Is that what you said?
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah, makes sense.
LIZ WOLFE: It does. All right, next question. And this is one I actually answered via email somewhat recently, so I'll just kind of say…repeat what I said in the email. This is on ” vitamin A toxicity and fermented cod liver oil.” Imani says: “I hope this message finds you well. My husband and I attended your very informative workshop at CrossFit in Winston Salem NC. There you recommended fermented cod liver oil as one of the 5 super foods. I read recently on Dr. Mercola’s site that there are new findings indicating that Vit A toxicity could be linked to intake of cod liver oil. Have you and Liz changed your perspective as well? Please explain why not, if possible. I’ve read a little Weston A. Price on this as well and to tell you the truth it wasn’t quite comprehensive for me. So here I am. I truly respect your approach and insight. Please pardon me if this is not the point of contact for such inquiries. Ordinarily I’d scour for hours to find this on my own. However, we’ve purchased quite a bit of cod liver oil and want to get some insight as quickly as possible. Thanks in advance.” So this one…I know that Dr. Mercola, and at least I haven't seen anything recently on Dr. Mercola about this, so I'm thinking maybe they dug up some older posts from mercola.com. I know Dr. Mercola did use to have a problem with this vitamin A thing with cod liver oil and he has reversed his stance. I think at one point some folks in the Paleo community were pretty convinced that there would be a problem with that vitamin A content of cod liver oil. I don't know that they're still kind of on that train, but overall, what we know now, what we understand about cod liver oil, it's a very kind of traditionally valued food. It's one that was given in sanitariums. It was given to people with tuberculosis. And what I've always been curious about is why do people use these old particular foods and what about them was providing the nourishment that they perceived it was. So when we're looking at these old kinds of cod liver oil, we're actually looking at cod liver oil that has two naturally occurring nutrients. Vitamin A and vitamin D. Unfortunately, in modern cod liver oil, and for quite some time, modern cod liver oil was not supplemented with any synthetic vitamins or nutrients after the fact, but for a very long time, we were actually heat processing cod liver oil. So the traditional cod liver oil was not necessarily heat processed. It was rich in vitamins A and D. Then we kind of got into this later period of time where you know we were starting to do things that were easier. Manufacturing became, you know, more of a cost benefit type of consideration. People were doing things on a large scale. And that's kind of where by my research heat processing came into…just kind of came on the scene. So we're heat processing cod liver oil, and vitamin D is actually really sensitive to heat processing. So at that point, we had a product that was exclusively vitamin A. And legitimately, you know, taking a whole, whole mess of vitamin A without adequate vitamin D could potentially cause problems. So then we're looking at the interaction of vitamin A and D, and what they do in the body. They're totally synergistic. There was a school of thought for a little while there that the two were competitively inhibitive, which I think is what Mercola and some folks in the Paleo community were referring to when they chose not to recommend cod liver oil, but what we understand now is that vitamins A and D are synergistic. They don't inhibit one another, but they basically make sure each other works as each one is supposed to in the body. So now we kind of understand that this ancestral superfood, this cod liver oil, is actually really awesome in addition to the diet as long as it's processed appropriately and got from the right places. So that's why Diane, you and I only recommend one kind of cod liver oil. We recommend the cod liver oil/butter oil blend from Green Pasture. It's Blue Ice Cod Liver Oil/Butter Oil Blend. We recommend that for the nutrients vitamins A, D, and K2. And that's just the one we recommend. I was looking at a couple other brands, and it looks like now all of these cod liver oils are being supplemented with vitamin D, all of these non-Green Pasture Blue Ice cod liver oil brands, like Barlean's and Carlson's. It looks like they're adding vitamin D back in after the fact, and my opinion, and I think there are some, at least marginally intelligent people that share my opinion, that after the fact addition of vitamin D is not ideal. So I do think the whole industry has caught on to the fact that you need vitamins A and D in proper proportion to one another, but rather than changing the processing method, they're just adding back vitamin D3 after the fact. And to me, that's just not…that's just the not the best idea. So you can actually check the labels of your cod liver oil and if they've added back cholecaciferol, that's your indicator that the processing is not ideal, and that's why we recommend this relatively expensive type of cod liver oil, if you're going to take cod liver oil at all. You could just go eat some cod livers, but I just don't think that's going to happen. There you go. I rambled on that one, too. When I don't have a script for myself, I just go on.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: That's fine. I-it's all good information.
LIZ WOLFE: Sweet. All right, next up.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Hey, there's one more thing. There's a podcast people could check out. It's an interview on SuperHuman Radio with Sally Fallon, and it's called “Forgotten Vitamin A” and she covers more information on this whole vitamin A toxicity thing. I mean, she basically says what you just said, where it really is a matter of how much vitamin D you have in the body. I think the issue is more that people are so low in vitamin D, that if they're trying to just take vitamin A, you have a problem. But when you're taking it in balance as it occurs in a whole food, like the fermented cod liver oil that we recommend, I just don't ever even consider that as being, you know, an isolated supplement as it's not. So…
LIZ WOLFE: I have taken so much of that stuff. I mean, I'm not concerned about toxicity.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: And look at ya! You're glowing!
LIZ WOLFE: Oh, look at me! Oh my god. [laughs] I'm covered in the new serum from Primal Life Organics right now.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: So she literally is like glowing. Her face is like ahhh radiant angel.
LIZ WOLFE: Aw, you brat.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Next question?
LIZ WOLFE: All right, next question. “Pregnancy and fructose malabsorption.” Beth says: “My question is about pregnancy and fructose malabsorption.” [laughs]
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Indeed.
LIZ WOLFE: Indeed it is. “I have been eating paleo for about 3 years and have been feeling great. I am 12 weeks pregnant and have noticed that aside from just nausea and food aversions typical with pregnancy, I am also experiencing new food intolerances. I paid attention to what I was eating and after getting especially sick after eating grapes, realized that I have become fructose intolerant. Do you have any idea if this can be brought on by pregnancy? I have never had any of these problems before my pregnancy. It has been hard to know what to eat. I’m afraid to eat anything! And I don’t know what to eat. I know I can eat meat, and I have been cooking it with little or no seasoning. Many sites suggest white rice and potatoes but that is not something I normally would include in my diet. I hope it goes away after my pregnancy. I couldn’t find any info on the Internet about a correlation between Fructose Malabsorption and pregnancy. Right now I can only safely eat meat (any kind), lettuce, and crackers. I exercise most days, a little bit less than I was because during my first trimester I have been so tired and nauseous. I walk, lift weights, and can do most of the same things I could do before. I was taking fermented cod liver oil/ butter oil and a few other supplements like b12, but my OBGYN told me to stop taking everything and just take a prenatal vitamin.” I just…my head just exploded. Ugh. Punching. I'm punching something.”I sleep every night from 8pm to 6am. So I get plenty of sleep. I have started eating crackers to help with my morning sickness. I eat them when I wake up. I used to eat eggs and bacon for breakfast but I have an aversion to eggs right now and I feel like too much salt makes me bloated as well. So I started eating green apples and homemade almond butter for breakfast for a while, until I started noticing Fructose Malabsorption symptoms and I have been scared to eat apples. I don’t drink, rarely eat out, and was very happy with my diet, mood, body composition. All of these problems are completely new to me since becoming pregnant. PS I have your book and it is awesome!”
DIANE SANFILIPPO: I was just almost giggling at her very last line there. “All these problems are completely new to me since becoming pregnant.” I was just thinking, there will be a lot more problems down the road.
LIZ WOLFE: A lot more new things to come.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: A lot more things to be asking questions about after this little nugget comes out, right?
LIZ WOLFE: [laughs]
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Anyway. All right, so I thinking a few things in Beth's question. For starters, let's cover the fructose malabsorption issue, which could be caused by small intestinal bacterial overgrowth. We don't know exactly what could be causing it for her, but I've said this before, and I'll just remind people. If you have trouble digesting fructose or FODMAPs in general, it's probably not just you don't tolerate those foods, and I think there are some people who maybe don't. There isn't some other underlying reason, but I think the general consensus is, if you're having an issue digesting FODMAPs, there's a reason for it. There's a reason why you're lacking those enzymes, why your, you know, bacterial balance is off in your gut. So I definitely recommend listening back all the way to episode, I think it's number 8, where we spoke with Chris Kresser about digestive health at length. There's also a podcast recently with, I think it was with Dr. Allison Siebecker on the Specific Carbohydrate Diet, or SCD Lifestyle podcast, so that might be a good one to listen to. Maybe we can see if we can dig up links to that. But if that's the current issue, then avoiding foods marked off as FODMAPs on my Guide to Paleo Foods, which, if she has the book, it's in the book. If you don't have the book, it's for free on the website. You can get the Guide to Paleo Foods, and II think there's…I don't know if there's an asterisk or a caret next to it. And then the recipes within the book are marked off if you're FODMAP free, just certain ingredients to avoid. While you're pregnant, looking to heal the root cause of this issue may not be your first step. It may be tricky. And it can also involve some pretty strong antibiotics, so I'd wait until after you give birth to even explore those options. It may even mean waiting longer, since you'll probably be nursing after you give birth, and so I don't know what the effects of something like antibiotics might be. So that's dealing with the whole FODMAP issue, and you know, if you feel good eating meats, lettuce, broth, you're going to doing pretty well in terms of nutrients, probably a few things you'll be missing out on, but I would say get the highest quality you can and just roll with what feels good. The whole crackers thing is a whole other issue, so the food aversion is common. It's not normal, so what I mean by that is that it tends to be a combination of psychological and a physiological response to the hormonal changes that are happening in your body. So it's definitely not something that means you'll vomit or be sick if you eat those foods. It's a totally different type of thing. The most common reason for feelings of nausea in pregnant women is in the morning, not surprisingly, low blood sugar. This is why crackers or orange juice tend to be what women turn to, [xxx] themselves out. In this case, some low fructose fruits, I think, some melon or like oranges might be a good idea. I would generally just say to look at a list of lower fructose fruits and see how you do with some of them. Try one at a time and just see how that goes. If eggs and bacon aren't working, move to other protein and fat sources, so it doesn't need to be breakfast foods for breakfast. Another issue here is that the crackers themselves are FODMAPs. So wheat is a FODMAP, so those aren't really going to help with your digestion. They're not going to help you digest other things as well. So I would definitely, you know, I would definitely get rid of the crackers and try and find anything else that's going to work for you. This like less popular equally true reason for food aversion in pregnant women is really psychological and it's a response to this physical/ physiological change in your body. So it was an old natural instinct to start sort of turn away from certain foods when we're feeling subpar or queasy, right? You know, we'd reach for the Saltines or the canned chicken soup, but I guarantee that powering through and eating the foods that you know are nutrient dense and healthy will help this phase to pass more quickly than not. So the issues of retraining your brain as well as rebalancing blood sugar are primary here. And you know, to this point, I had a conversation recently with another sort of Paleo friend of mine, and we're just talking about, you know, what if we had this morning sickness or, you know, food aversion? Like in our world, and that's not to say this is everyone's world, but just kind of explaining this perspective, like crackers are never an option for me. Like I just don't even consider them a food choice, so I think that she has a little bit of a tricky situation here because she's averse to things and is also having trouble digesting other things, but the reality is what's going to best for your body is to keep it to whole nutrient dense foods, whichever ones feel good for you right now. Not to stress about which ones don't feel good. You know, keep a list, if you're like forgetting that some things didn't go well. But really keeping the refined stuff that's just not going to be contributing to the health of the baby, just keeping that stuff out. And I would say, too, just sometimes sort of forcing yourself to eat something that you're just averse to or just feeling a little bit like put off by, sometimes it's the smell or it's the texture. It's something totally happening in your brain that if you started eating it, it would go away. And I know that sounds crazy, but I just think that people need to push themselves past some of that, and just see what happens because you know that it really is best for your body to go ahead and eat those foods. So that's my best advice for Beth, and yeah, let us know, Beth, how it goes.
LIZ WOLFE: How we doing on time here?
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Do we have time for…? I think probably just this one last one?
LIZ WOLFE: Cool.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Sweeteners, everyone?
LIZ WOLFE: All righty. Next question “approved sweeteners.” Michelle says: “I have been looking on your site for any commentary on vegetable glycerin but can’t seem to find any. What is your take on it as a sweetener?” Do you want me to just jump right in here, Diane?
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yes.
LIZ WOLFE: Yes. So glycerin, the reason, and I'm assuming she's talking about your website, but she may be talking about my website. The reason I say nothing about glycerin is because I don't know…I feel like if somebody asks me…it's like that scene in Sixteen Candles where Jake Ryan's like, ” What do you think about Samantha Baker?” And the other meathead next to him that's doing fake pull-ups goes “I don't.” I don't. Like what do you think about vegetable glycerin? I don't.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: I don't.
LIZ WOLFE: I don't. So I know glycerin is basically a byproduct of the biodiesel process, and I think a few other processes. Even in the research I've done for my book, which is kind of this history of…history of missteps that kind of brought us to where we are today, the margarine process of separating oils from like soybeans, you get lecithin from there and you also get glycerin, I think, from the lecithin. I might have that backwards, but it's basically just a sweet by-product of industrial processes. And technically it doesn't contain sugar. I don't think. And so, to me, it's like something sweet with no sugar. Like I just think that's reason enough to avoid it. That's just not right. If you shouldn't have sugar or sweeteners, just don't eat sugars or sweeteners. If you're okay with them, have some homemade date syrup or some maple syrup, you know, with like the pumpkin pancakes from Diane's book. Or just something that comes with a few nutrients to aid in the processing of that sugar in your body. I think this glycerin is sometimes looked at as the only kind of safe sweetener for candida. People dealing with candida. But also like you and I were talking about this off the air, Diane. If you're not supposed to have sugar, don't try and find every back door you possibly can to having sugar. You know? And oh, I actually had…this is funny. I forgot we weren't recording when this happened. I actually have in all of my weird things that I do and test on myself for personal care, body care…
DIANE SANFILIPPO: For the sake of science.
LIZ WOLFE: for the sake of science.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Duh.
LIZ WOLFE: Duh. I actually bought some vegetable glycerin from Mountain Rose Herbs. It's derived from soybeans, but I had heard that it was maybe a good makeup primer. So what I was trying to do was find something that I could use that would help my, you know, beet stain blush stay on, and I had just heard that vegetable glycerin was good for that. And I looked at this question, and I pulled this big thing of vegetable glycerin out of my makeup drawer, which I actually never ended up using. So I'm going to taste it. I'm going to taste it and see what this stuff actually tastes like. I'm going to do it.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Oh help me.
LIZ WOLFE: Oh help. [tasting noise]
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Who tastes makeup but you?
LIZ WOLFE: OH my God. Who else tastes their makeup? That is [hacking noise]. That's disgusting. That's really gross. That tastes…
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Is it sweet?
LIZ WOLFE: Yeah, it's super sweet. It's like sweet…it's like uber sweet. Uber turbo like this is aspartame, not quite right type of sweet.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: So you just did an experiment and invented Splenda sweet.
LIZ WOLFE: [hacking noise] I totally did. And I'm wiping off my tongue with a washcloth. Ehhh.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: With your oil cleansing washcloth? I hope not.
LIZ WOLFE: Yeah, ew, no. [laughs] This is my…
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Who has a washcloth at their desk?
LIZ WOLFE: I don't know why. Don't…oh man. Because I'm a jerk. But really this stuff, yeah, I just tasted that. I don't know. That seemed like a good idea at the time. But yeah, it's sweet, but it's a byproduct. It's gross. And for many reasons, I just think stay away from it. That's my take.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: [laughs]
LIZ WOLFE: I'm really regretting that.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: She put off the bottle and her face is turning away from the microphone.
LIZ WOLFE: I'm scraping my tongue off. Ehh, all right, we're going to have to end on that one because I'm going to have to go brush my teeth with my Ora-Wellness drops. Ugh. I'm like a product placement…I feel like we're Mike and Mike right now. Like we're going to start shilling for Subway.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: Absolutely not.
LIZ WOLFE: Looking at each other with our microphones in our faces.
DIANE SANFILIPPO: All right, well. [laughs]
LIZ WOLFE: That's it for today. That's it. Thanks for listening everybody. We'll be back next week with more of your questions, probably fewer science experiments, live science experiments. Until then you can find Diane at BalancedBites.com. You can find me, Liz, at CaveGirlEats.com or LizWolfeNTP.com. Thanks for listening. We'll be back next week.
Diane & Liz